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File: 1444630521997.jpg (328.61 KB, 1809x1357, 1395436777329.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

ID: 4fd228 No.15689[Last 50 Posts]

What political ideology do lains adhere to or lean towards?
>>

ID: 604bdb No.15690

Anti-consumerism social democracy, companies arn't people. Human Rights arn't inherent or "god-given" but an idea we made up one day. That said, it's a great idea and we should be more willing to question, change and modify what rights we should have in society. I'm not in love with the government but I say socialist just because I live in US and I just want fuarrrking social safety net and not this dog eat dog, bootstrap bullshit

>>

ID: 2b0d23 No.15691

File: 1444631059042.jpeg (28.47 KB, 250x250, image.jpeg) ImgOps iqdb

Memeocracy.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15692

File: 1444631295845.png (445.63 KB, 1040x540, 1443950851715.png) ImgOps iqdb

anarchism
anti-capitalism/consumerism

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15693

File: 1444631485899.png (379.42 KB, 470x589, 1429292176031.png) ImgOps iqdb

anarchism
pro-capitalism
traditionalism
anti-goyism

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15694

>>15693

by anti-goyism I mean against being an obedient goy, by the way

>>15690
>and I just want fuarrrking social safety net and not this dog eat dog, bootstrap bullshit

It really doesn't feel like we have that in America tbh fam

>>

ID: 4238e9 No.15696

>>15690
>Anti-consumerism social democracy, companies arn't people. Human Rights arn't inherent or "god-given" but an idea we made up one day. That said, it's a great idea and we should be more willing to question, change and modify what rights we should have in society.

This is the stuff genocide is made of.

"We need to question the rights of people, and by we I mean the democratic majority and by rights I mean murder and by people I mean everybody we don't like."

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15697

>>15693
>anarchism
>pro-capitalism
>traditionalism
>anti-goyism

https://youtu.be/FClGhto1vIg?t=11s

>>

ID: c95234 No.15698

File: 1444634848634.jpg (11.04 KB, 233x250, m'doka.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

democracy
liberalism
anarchism

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15699

File: 1444635360773.gif (655.28 KB, 130x98, 1388394147425.gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>15697

I sympathize with the views of anarcho-capitalists when it comes to free markets,

But I believe there's a place for traditional social values as a way checking the negative effects of rampant consumerism which helps enable crony capitalism.

And I think we can all agree we should stop giving so many shekels to the Jews.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15701

>>15698

large scale democracies tend to result in greater statism while small scale democracies tend to only work when everybody is of an equal socio-economic status.

Personally I see anarchism and democracy as kinda contradictory.

>>

ID: 4238e9 No.15702

>>15701
I don't see them as contradictory, but anarcho-democracy is literal mob-rule.

>>

ID: 604bdb No.15703

>>15696
enjoy living in the 1700s then, founding fathers didn't come up with right to privacy so I guess we can never have that ever. Don't you dare question if we should have more rights because that is the stuff genocide is made of.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15704

File: 1444636497677.jpg (413.9 KB, 3072x3072, KjOBjPW.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>15699
m8, anarcho-capitalism is just an edge-master synonym for Laissez-faire capitalism

don't delude yourself. capitalism at its very core is a coercive force.

>>

ID: 4238e9 No.15705

>>15703
Every "social-democrat" is 2 steps away from taking a machinegun to some minorities.

First step is to for the majority to agree that the minorities are bad for society.

Second step is to get the machinegun.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15706

File: 1444636863451.jpg (122.73 KB, 788x1024, 5z0cCiG.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

i'm drunk af, and enjoy political brewing soykaf l.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15707

>>15704

>anarcho-capitalism is just an edge-master synonym for Laissez-faire capitalism


which has always proven better than Goymunism.

>don't delude yourself. capitalism at its very core is a coercive force.


what's more coercive "You can do whatever you want with your own money and property as long as you aren't violating anyone else's life or property," or "you're going to give your money to the poor, the sick, the elderly, the disabled and anyone else we decide needs it to whatever degree we decide whether you like it or not and if you aren't going to do it voluntarily we will make you"?

Capitalism is only bad when you couple it with dumb modernist dribble like social darwinism.

>>

ID: 604bdb No.15708

>>15705
I know this is rare on the net but I'll admit I'm wrong. I thought social democrat was something different than it was. I don't believe in the tyranny of the majority through direct democracy at all. There needs to be protections put in place to prevent minorities from being persecuted.

I guess I'll just explain my political ideaology and you anons can but a label to it if there is one. It would be a representative democracy with a strong social safety net(basically one of the top priorities would be making sure no one is hungry/homeless). People have rights to speech (USA style), privacy, autonomy and most of the rights in modern countries.
It would have capitalism for non essential goods but food,medicine, education and other basic needs would be either produced or heavily heavily regulated by the state. There would be police/military but these would be defensive only and highly scrutinized. People can start and own business but workers you hire have to be paid not only in currency but over time stakes in the business since they help build it. There are ton of other things but thats the basics and forgive my ignorance I'm not sure which of the tons of ideologies this would fall under

>>

ID: 604bdb No.15709

>>15707
you can do whatever you want with your property we stole from the natives and the money your corporate masters have found is just enough to keep you from rioting. Be sure to buy that new iphone too fam.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15710

brewing soykaf :3

>>15707
I'm advocating for anarchy, not communism
capitalism is bad (and inherently opposed to anarchism) because wage labor for food and shelter is coercive as fuarrrk. nobody with a brain would voluntarily engage in a coercive system based on restricting the usage/allocation of resources based on market dynamics.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15711

File: 1444637890319.png (412.59 KB, 960x960, RCHn2Sp.jpg.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>15710
kek i love this wrodfildter

brewing soykaf :3

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15712

File: 1444640493858.gif (720.86 KB, 446x251, 1368661253328.gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>15710

>capitalism is bad (and inherently opposed to anarchism) because wage labor for food and shelter is coercive as fuarrrk.


Wage labor=/=capitalism, bro. The Republican party was largely against wage labor when it first started because they saw it as little better than slavery but still promoted a free market and capitalist system.

I agree that ideally everyone should probably be able to grow or gather their own food on their own property and not have to buy so much food from markets to support themselves. But some people aren't in positions to do that and secondly even farmers and pastoral nomads who are relatively self-sufficient still engage in trade to supplement what they are unable to grow for themselves or to acquire extra goods and services. But wage labor is only a problem when there is a flooded labor market and very few competing employers, which lowers the value of each worker's labor and also results in monopolization by a single employer or group of employers who don't have to fear competition stealing workers if they pay them for their labor lower than the actual value of said labor. Before the 1850's in the United States, most people didn't have to worry as much about being exploited by employers because their labor was less replaceable before immigration, urbanization, and freeing the slaves flooded the labor market.

Ideally, more people would have their own property to provide shelter and food for their basic needs, but I don't see how this is possible except in a political environment that values private property, free trade and freedom of capital investment. You also have to take it into account that maybe due to environment or other factors, some peoples would only be able to survive if they could sell their labor or engage in trade (such as in countries with little arable land).

>>

ID: 200057 No.15714

>What political ideology do lains adhere to or lean towards?
Progressive taxation (there is no point in multi-millionaires)
4-hour work day and/or Basic income
Promotion of automatization/AI techs in industry. (robots must be slaves, not humans)
Also there is nothing wrong with World Goverment if it declines number of armed conficts.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15715

>>15714
>Progressive taxation (there is no point in multi-millionaires)

I think if you're going to tax corporations, you need to lower or abolish the income tax. Scandinavian used to be doing a lot better until the socialists in their parliaments decided that instead of raising the corporate taxes to pay for social services, they'd just tax the soykaf out of people's incomes. They're still doing better than most nations, but their quality of life is lower than what it used to be.

>4-hour work day and/or Basic income


Well, the average peasant used to only work half the months out of the year, so that seems alright. Personally I think just getting rid of minimum wages and work hours is the best course. Let employees and employees negotiate just how much they want to work for and how they much they want to be payed.

>Promotion of automatization/AI techs in industry. (robots must be slaves, not humans)


I only worry about people becoming slugs who can't do anything for themselves (like me).

>Also there is nothing wrong with World Goverment if it declines number of armed conficts.


The problem is that individual governments have a hard enough time reducing conflict within themselves. Governments in general tend to be pretty shitty when it comes to managing anything, much less the entire world.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15716

>>15712
I'm really drunk and spent a bunch of time typing a response to this. then I realized what you typed here:

>Wage labor=/=capitalism


wage labor is a defining characteristic of capitalism. capitalism can't exist without wage labor.

capitalism means the working class has to sell their labor in exchange for a wage. wtf are you drinking and where can I buy some?

>Before the 1850's in the United States, most people didn't have to worry as much about being exploited by employers because their labor was less replaceable before immigration, urbanization, and freeing the slaves flooded the labor market.


if these things are problems for a stateless "anarcho-capitalist" free-market , then I've got news for you... the state is what enables slavery and prevents immigration

>Ideally, more people would have their own property to provide shelter and food for their basic needs, but I don't see how this is possible except in a political environment that values private property, free trade and freedom of capital investment. You also have to take it into account that maybe due to environment or other factors, some peoples would only be able to survive if they could sell their labor or engage in trade (such as in countries with little arable land).


it's called a cooperative.

>>

ID: 93e4f7 No.15717

Libertarian

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15718

>>15716
>I'm really drunk

No wonder your posts are retarded.

>wage labor is a defining characteristic of capitalism. capitalism can't exist without wage labor.


Yes and no. Before the industrial revolution, merchant capitalism dominated, and one thing that separates pre-modern merchant capitalism from industrial capitalism is the fact that merchant capitalism was not built on a foundation of wage labor. Wage labor is largely a product of industrial capitalism. Merchant capitalism was pretty much just merchants buying and selling the surplus generated by the peasantry that they didn't have any need for and also acting as the middle man between independent cottage industries and consumers interested in their products. The modern factory and its complex and mechanical hierarchy of wage labor is largely absent in pre-modern merchant capitalism which mostly dealt in raw goods and handicrafts.

Also, even in industrial capitalism, if everyone who works at factory were a partner in owning said factory and were payed instead a equitable share of the profits made from the selling of the goods produced in said factory in proportion to the amount of shares they hold, that would still be capitalism without wage labor.

>if these things are problems for a stateless "anarcho-capitalist" free-market ,


they aren't. What you'd likely end up with anarcho-capitalism is a society with a large number of small businesses and fewer big corporations since big corporations are unable to maintain their monopoly without the state. You'd also probably end up with a price for labor since unions can't use government to force employers to pay workers more than their labor is worth and employers can't use government to protect their right to hire employees for lower than the actual cost of labor and use government force to put down any protest or competition that may prevent them from having to experience the consequences of such actions. When workers are being payed a fairer wage and can actually afford to save money, in a free economy they are at greater liberty to invest those savings into going into business for themselves or to buy or invest in new property that allows them to live free from the market if they so choose.

>it's called a cooperative.


Cooperatives only work in a free economy and anarcho-capitalism doesn't discourage private charity or investment in social services provided by private parties.

>>

ID: 6c6524 No.15719

File: 1444647300315.jpg (127.22 KB, 991x656, 1429818086226.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

I'm an anarchist.
I really like the situationists, too.

>>

ID: 6c6524 No.15720

File: 1444647395688.jpg (69.94 KB, 674x685, reminder.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb


>>

ID: c95234 No.15721

>>15704
>>15706
>>15711
these ancap pics are hysterical

>>

ID: 1915e6 No.15722

File: 1444650705430.gif (1.52 MB, 325x324, estonia_fuck_yeah.gif) ImgOps iqdb

Individualism and anti-consumerism.

Just because I hate big corporations and big governments. For some reason I can't call my self anarcho-capitalist because I don't like big corporations doing all this soykaf and because some fuarrrking dirty murrica-tier liberal commie wannabees think it's edgy to make comics about it even tough they have never seen a communist country up and close.

Call this a knee-jerk reaction or whatever you want I'm not gonna write more than this. I hate talking about politics because it has become "You believe in that thing so you must be this side"-thing where you are thrown into these murrica-centrits sides and it becomes a soykaf trowing competition on some fuarrrking loud noised monkeys ie. this thread.

Fucking stop.

>>

ID: 41a73b No.15723

File: 1444652955200.jpg (29.75 KB, 640x640, uspolitics.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

socialist anarchism is my wikipedia'd political ideology.

it is like kicking dead whales down the beach having the US so damn to the right. i don't agree with some of the further to the left parties (green) on topics like guns and nuclear power, but the rest is more or less my view.

politicians pushing social issues and ignoring the rest, which are way more important than whether gays can marry or babies can be aborted.

>>

ID: 502b39 No.15724

>>15723
>US so damn to the right
Can we stop using the terms right and left please? They don't actually apply to any major parties in the US. And if they did the US certainly wouldn't be "to the right." Also let's stop using "liberal" and "conservative" as synonyms for "democrat" and "republican" as they don't correspond much at all.

>>

ID: 41a73b No.15725

>>15724
ok lainon, how should I be conceptualizing US politics?

not trying to be difficult, genuinely curious.

>>

ID: 81a22d No.15727

>>15689
i prefer to not get into politics. no reason for me to get into them, its not like my thoughts make a difference in the big scheme.

>>

ID: 16bf02 No.15728

I don't put an exact label on it, but I'm in the Libertarian Socialist camp, either social anarchist, democratic socialist or mutualist.

>>

ID: 189b61 No.15731

I like freedom and am educating myself regarding post-growth-societies.

>>

ID: 78cc72 No.15732

File: 1444665175256.jpg (1.18 MB, 880x1218, 1444578287583.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

I noticed there are a lot of anarchists on this chan, feels like I am out of place, I used to be one myself but I changed my ways, I think it's really, really wrong.

tl;dr
>capitalist
>highly traditionalist
>authoritarian and anti-democracy
>somewhat nationalist

>against secularism

>against racism
>against mass immigration
>against LGBT

I also believe scientific advancement and economic growth is very important and a stable government should strive towards these things.

>>

ID: 97fc3c No.15733

>>15732
I am not an anarchist. A lot of us think those threads are stupid and we simply do not post in them.

>>

ID: 78cc72 No.15734

>>15733
Good riddance.

>>

ID: aefb61 No.15735

File: 1444666897066.jpg (71 KB, 720x494, undercontrol.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

libertarian/anarchist

>>

ID: 6c6524 No.15736

>>15732
What's so surprising about a cyberpunk board having lots of anarchists?

>>

ID: 78cc72 No.15737

>>15736
Because being cyberpunk doesn't necessarily mean you have to hate cops and despise authority.

If you like pirates it doesn't mean you have to murder and pillage people.

>>

ID: 54771e No.15739

>>15693
>anarchism
>pro-capitalism

pick one

>>

ID: aa3016 No.15740

>>15737
how would a self-described traditionalist view a cyberpunk world?

I guess you got the authoritarian part down, so maybe you can join the cops and stomp the punks down. I mean they would be part of the cyberpunk world right?

>>

ID: 7ae8f0 No.15742

File: 1444669924834.jpg (257.68 KB, 576x792, b1525e01e056565ac34a03d513….jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

Authoritarian absolutist who adheres to a hobbesian philosophy with a heavy interest in a strong sense of nationalism combined with a dominant position in world affairs to slowly unite the world under my control, for the betterment of the many.

anarchists get rekted, your just mad your poor and can't afford to git gud with superior german technology. Sieg Zeon.

>>

ID: a2e0be No.15746

People take pride in what they have no hand in
Sorta like a phantom holographic handsome
But deep inside he wants to do what his man done
Just because his peers jeer and and clown
When you're six foot deep no one hears you now
They say were not compatible like deers and cows and owls
So many rules and regulations say you're not allowed

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15748

>>15720

American Libertarianism >>> Libertarian socialism tbh fam

>>15722
>For some reason I can't call my self anarcho-capitalist because I don't like big corporations

Well, you can support capitalism while disliking big corporations.

Most of the people who dislike anarcho-capitalism have never actually read any of its core texts and just have a knee jerk reaction to the word capitalism. Most anarcho-capitalists hate the collaboration between big business and big government and contrary to what some people believe, it wasn't a reaction to socialism as much as it was a reaction to authoritarian neo-conservatism that just wanted to avoid the extremities of the socialist left. Also, an-caps would still defend the right of individuals to freely avoid the market altogether because it's not a "free market" if people are forced to participate in it and would also support voluntary property sharing. I think the reason anarcho-capitalists get soykaf is because they have no pretensions of being able to fully eliminate oppression in society. From my observations, anarcho-capitalists tend to mostly be of the opinion that it's impossible to create a perfect social system where everybody is equal.

>>15732

I think most on this board probably hold political views that are somewhat "extreme" whether it's anarchism or something else. But I would think most here would hate things government surveillance and the violation of individual privacy.

>>

ID: c88ec8 No.15749

>>15718

Do you ever read the stuff over at C4SS? Your points remind me of a lot of their points.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15750

>>15740
>how would a self-described traditionalist view a cyberpunk world?

Depends on what dude means by traditionalism. Traditionalism tends to be very much opposed to nationalism for example because it's seen as a product of modernism and as an attempt to displace religion or make it subject to some other even more subjective set of principles.

Traditionalists tend to be monarchists and/or romantics who are highly critical of the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the Protestant Reformation, the New Age movement, feminism, nationalism and the resurrection of Greek decadence that occurred during the Renaissance and they're mostly Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians or Muslims.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15751

>>15749

I think I've heard of it but I've never actually checked it out.

>>

ID: c88ec8 No.15752

>>15751

Some of the stuff can be hit-or-miss, for example Kevin Carson attempting to merge the labor theory of value with Austrian subjective marginal value theories, but a lot of the stuff jives with what you were talking about. Some of them describe themselves as anti-capitalists using what they consider the original meaning of the term, which they specifically cite as different from the modern usage and definition of the term.

https://c4ss.org.

>>

ID: 54771e No.15753

>>15748
How exactly does anarcho-capitalism prevent domination by large corporations?

>>

ID: 6c6524 No.15754

File: 1444677211791.gif (696.86 KB, 500x281, 1444154336895.gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>15737
>being cyberpunk doesn't necessarily mean you have to hate cops and despise authority.
It does. Did you miss the punk part?

>>

ID: c4ce73 No.15755

>>15737
liking /= being

>>

ID: c4ce73 No.15756

>>15754
When does Mayuri wear the school girl uniform? The IBM commercials?

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15758

>>15753

Because large corporations usually only maintain their monopolies through some kind of government privilege or assistance unless of course they provide the best service/product available that there's no demand for competition or if they use private aggression with their own resources to crush competitors before they get too big for their britches in a given area where their influence is felt.

But when you take the government out of the equation, a large corporation can only sustain itself through the power of its own strength or by appeasing the market, which are likely to limit its overall reach and control because they do not have access to a well of "common resources" taxed from the people and also they don't have anyone to bail them out with taxpayer money in case they fuarrrk up. This makes it easier for smaller businesses to establish themselves in the void where larger corporations cannot reach to satisfy market demands. British companies for instance probably never would have been able to expand as much outside of Britain if the Imperial government did not favor them over local cottage industries in colonized parts of Africa and India. Large corporations are likely to be smaller overall in a more anarcho-capitalist society because their sphere of influence is limited, allowing smaller businesses in the areas free of that influence to develop more freely without harassment and forcing larger single competitors to reach favorable compromises with the larger number of smaller businesses who may be more firmly established in a given market and are unlikely to respond positively to aggression and are free to boycott any company they don't like or use violence to defend their independence and livelihoods.

You'd probably still have areas where there is exploitation and abuse by larger private companies, but would you rather have that limited to just one small portion of the globe or would you rather that such a company's influence be felt all over the globe? Anarcho-capitalism is more I think about establishing a favorable equilibrium as opposed to a capitalist utopia.

>>

ID: 7ae8f0 No.15759

>>15758
That sounds even worse than corporation control; the market itself fighting the market? It's more efficient to have one power having control, why needlessly split it up for no reason other than a false sense of "independence"?

>>

ID: 253491 No.15760

where'd all the NRX guys come from? it feels like we're getting raided
>>15718
hey so I'm looking to purchase some humans. I hear you got the good stuff

>>

ID: 03b887 No.15761

>>15759
Not that poster, nor an an-cap but...

>no reason other than a false sense of "independence"?

That sense of independence is not so false. As I'm sure all the anarchists will be happy to tell you there are problems with centralised power structures that for some are more important than efficiency.

>>15760
>you can tell who the new users are when they post in this thread
You sure can buddy. You sure can.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15762

>>15759

Let's say Company A wants to establish itself in a market where companies B and C are already firmly established. Let's say B and C are smaller individually than A but together are more or less equal in size and influence to A. If A were to ever use aggression to try to establish a monopoly, B and C would have a mutual interest in combating A. Unless Company A wants to use force and risk aggressive conflict with those two companies, it's much more in Company A's interests to either back off and leave that market alone or to reach a compromise with B and C that will allow it to satisfy a demand for A products in that market and maybe collaborate for mutual profits with B and C because the cost of aggressive conflict with B and C is much higher a personal cost to them. Peace is usually always better for business than war. But when government gets involved, it allows larger companies like Company A to forcefully establish themselves in foreign markets with less personal cost to themselves, because it's not necessarily THEIR sons or THEIR workers dying or THEIR money being spent.

>>

ID: 253491 No.15763

>>15761
I'm older than dirt

>>

ID: 5c9eb9 No.15764

>>15763
good for you?

>>

ID: 253491 No.15765

>>15762
>company A enters market
>strikes deal with company B to eliminate company C
>company A then merges with company B to increase overall profits
>scoop up the remains of company C while we're at it

>>

ID: 461289 No.15766

As a self proclaimed libertarian I do believe that businesses need to be checked on and regulated from time to time, mainly large corporations. Also the government should be doing EVERYTHING in its power to protect people's individual rights, instead of legislating them away because they are frightened by some big black scary looking gun. Finally the government should be protecting our borders, instead of letting a bunch of illegal immigrants and illegal drugs slip into this country. (note: I am all for legalizing certain drugs, but until then they are still illegal.)

>>

ID: 105ac5 No.15767

>>15766
sooo basically you are american conservative

>>

ID: 502b39 No.15769

>>15725
Use words that describe political parties, issues and groups of people that actually exist. The democratic party, gay marriage and libertarians are a political party, an issue and a group of people respectively which actually exist. At this point "left" and "right" are just buzzwords that lump a huge variety of ideas into two simple categories.

I expect the left/right divide is popular with the media because it creates drama. No matter which side you consider yourself to be on you'll notice that other people disagree with you on some issue or another, and you'll start to lump them together into the other side. At some point you'll notice that just about everybody disagrees with you on something. In this way everybody gets to feel like they're the underdog, fighting valiantly against the great hordes of right-wing-biggots/left-wing-idiots and everybody can throw soykaf at everybody else and still feel superior.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15771

>>15765

Company A and B should be free to merge as long as they aren't using violence or aggression to prevent Company C from continuing to provide its products and services to those consumers who choose to remain loyal to its brand.

If Company A and B decide to peacefully and voluntarily merge in order to better compete with Company C in providing the best products and services to consumers, then Company C can only fail if its unable to continue providing a valuable product or service the market wants.

As long as Company A is not using violence or dishonest business tactics in order to crush competition and its dominance of the market is due solely to its providing the best in service and product to meet the consumer demand, Company A is not doing anything wrong and chances are the majority of the consumers in that market are being satisfied if there's no market demand for C to continue its business independently. Are you saying somebody should force people to continue buying from Company C if its products are of lesser quality than Company A+B or that government should prevent Company C from going bankrupt or failing just for the sake of keeping it alive when no one wants its service? C can only go under in this situation if it is unable to keep the loyalty of the consumers to its brand or if the owners handle their business recklessly, in which case it is better for everybody in that situation for it to go away.

>>

ID: 4fd228 No.15772

>>15769

Also, the differences between two "right wing parties" are often as wide as the differences between any one of them and one of their left wing counterparts.

>>

ID: 253491 No.15773

>>15769
>left and right are just buzzwords
okay sure they're a false dichotomy, but to exclude / delegitimize the opinions of people who use them is also a bit closeminded, don't you think?
>>15771
>should be free to merge
actually, they're free to do whatever they want. that's the point.

>>

ID: 502b39 No.15774

>>15773
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to think their opinions are retarded. I'm not trying to "delegitimize" anything, but to encourage clear and meaningful language so we can discuss politics without pretending we're [insert content-free news channel from the other side of the aisle].

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ID: 4fd228 No.15775

>>15773
>actually, they're free to do whatever they want. that's the point.

They really aren't though, because there are still consequences they are forced to suffer for their own incompetence, negligence and general dickery. A company is more likely to try extra hard to not piss off its workers if it knows that if it does, nobody is there to protect it if the workers decide to turn on their employer or go work for someone else who treats them better. It's more likely to treat consumers with respect because if they piss off the market too much, they'll stop buying from them or even run them out. It's more likely to treat its competitors with respect because if it doesn't, those competitors will work against them instead of with them. When you take government out of the mix, there's a lot more pressure on companies to play nice and fair, because if they don't nobody's gonna bail them out when it blows up in their face.

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ID: f718e1 No.15780

>>15775
That's great, people can choose where they want to work, until company B and C are full and now they have to work in an even crappier company A who now shows no mercy to its workers who they now can't afford to treat well and can't protest because otherwise they have no job.

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ID: 2c1740 No.15782

>>15691
nice summation of this thread.

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ID: 4fd228 No.15790

>>15780

Unless Company B and C want to lose workers to Company A, they have far greater interest in making sure as many of the people in their respective sphere of influence are working for them as they can. It doesn't benefit these companies at all to leave large numbers of potential workers and consumers unsatisfied. Unsatisfied workers will take their labor elsewhere. Unsatisfied consumers will take their money elsewhere and having large segments of the population broke means they don't have any money to give to you. Companies B and C in this situation have every interest in investing money in creating new jobs, backing start up franchises and providing social services which help create a more productive & financially stable community. If Company A in this situation is generally a bad company, it's highly unlikely anybody will want to work for it unless Company B and C are providing them absolutely nothing of value.

Even if a situation like you described did occur, it is likely to impact only an insignificant portion of the overall population because the last thing Company B and C would be doing is purposely alienating large numbers of potential workers or consumers and allowing A to come in and scoop them up. And in a situation where B+C lack the resources to provide for everyone, it's likely that a fourth party will enter the picture, especially if people want service on par with B+C but refuse to work for crappy A any further.

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ID: 5e37b3 No.15794

- Small government
- Strong freedom of speech
- The right of the citizen to bear arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED (the founding fathers knew their soykaf and made it very clear it was meant for the people to defend their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. if you don't have the means to defend your rights then anyone can trample on them.)
- Mostly free-market with regulation in important areas
- Freedom of religion (tho hopefully mostly secular)
- Victim-less crimes aren't crimes
- If you're not harming others it's nobodies business
- You don't have a right to not be offended
- Workers own means of production
- High taxes on the top 1% (there comes a point where people have so much wealth that it becomes nothing more than a number that no longer improves your life and could be better used to help the rest of the population)
- Not too consumerist (Minimalism is good)
- Environmental protection
- Live free or die
- Socialist health care, education, public infrastructure, etc.
- Right for people to become autonomous (nobody chooses to be born and you shouldn't be able to force someone to participate in a society they didn't agree to be a part of)

And so on...

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ID: bff2bc No.15801

File: 1444711188085.png (31.67 KB, 255x213, tmp_11837-1416762098608-19….png) ImgOps iqdb

At heart, I'm nationalistic - but with the state of the world, I can't feel pride for any country.

Corporations essentially control the masses and destroy what used to be unique local economies - so I guess I'm a bit anti-capitalist.

I don't completely agree with modern conservatives, and liberals never make any damn sense.

I'd like to be Libertarian, maybe an Anarchist - but I know human nature dictates that SOMEONE will always try to fill the power vaccuum and screw over the honest folk.

So really, I don't know amymore. I just want off this ride.

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ID: e98b6b No.15802

>>15801
worst chart 0/10

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ID: e98b6b No.15803

>>15774
so basically if someone doesn't talk with you the way you want them to (aka the way that validates your own worldview) then you can pretend their arguments don't exist?
>>15775
you've managed to figure out that actions have consequences, that's cool since most people do it at a very young age. but this does nothing about your unusually contrived examples and handwaving

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ID: e9197c No.15806

>>15801
the description on the left libertarian quadrant is gold

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ID: 4fd228 No.15810

>>15803
>but this does nothing about your unusually contrived examples and handwaving

The point is government is completely unnecessary and more often than not prevents the natural consequences of being a total shithead, consequences which as you stated even the smallest child usually understands, in an otherwise free market where people sink or swim on their own. Government is almost always the main force by which big corporation suppress competition, avoid bankruptcy as a result of their incompetence, maintain monopolies, suppress violent uprisings against corporate aggression, conquer new markets through means other than providing the best and most affordable product, and so on and so on. It's important to emphasize something as basic as natural consequences precisely because big businesses avoid most if not all those consequences by using government as their personal shield.

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ID: 6c6524 No.15812

File: 1444717504878.png (1.54 MB, 1164x1246, 1435481473026.png) ImgOps iqdb


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ID: 523dd2 No.15813

>>15810
I still don't understand; you haven't proven that not having government is good, or even that government is bad; all you've said is that government leads to large corporations, but you haven't given a single reason beyond a sense of freedom or self control that would warrant the deconstruction of such systems, that are put into place for the advancement of society.

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ID: 4fd228 No.15815

>>15813
>you haven't proven that not having government is good, or even that government is bad

I listed several reasons why, you just don't seem to value freedom of business or any real sense of self-determination.

>all you've said is that government leads to large corporations, but you haven't given a single reason beyond a sense of freedom or self control that would warrant the deconstruction of such systems, that are put into place for the advancement of society.


I'm not actually against large companies at all, especially if they can lead to the advancement of society and a greater quality of life for everyone. Large corporations in and of themselves aren't bad at all, and in an anarcho-capitalist society, corporations would be allowed to grow as big as they want to and as big as there is a market demand for their products/services or as big as there are workers who would like to be employed by them. But the key words here are "market" and "demand". If there is a market demand for a company to come in and "advance the society," in such and such a way, anarcho-capitalism is perfectly okay with that as long as it is 100% voluntary, which means no lies, violence, extortion and backstabbing is done by anyone on either side.

What government more often does is not create an environment where the best companies necessarily dominate the market peacefully and to the benefit of the whole of society, but creates an environment where merit and talent are made more irrelevant to success and where society's advancement suffers as a result of incompetent or lesser individuals maintaining a privileged position over their natural betters just by filling the right pockets. In anarcho-capitalism, ideally, merit and good public relations generally determine whether larger company sinks or not since they need to possess the competence to manage themselves without any government assistance to protect them from their own mistakes and they need to be able to convince the market that what they provide is something they should want.

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ID: f7db23 No.15823

>>15689
Capitalism is my preferred system. I support it, especially as it is manifested in the United States of America.

God Bless America!

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ID: 54771e No.15827

>>15801
>that chart

*tips*

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ID: 502b39 No.15830

>>15803
>so basically if someone doesn't talk with you the way you want them to (aka the way that validates your own worldview) then you can pretend their arguments don't exist?
Ignoring something is different from pretending something doesn't exist. I can consider an argument, compare it to what I know of the world, decide if it has merit and either discard it or change my view depending. Are you advocating some sort of relativism where everybody gets to be right about everything?

I have considered the left/right categorization and come to the conclusion that it's not very helpful when talking about (american at least) politics. I think if most people thought hard about it they'd come to the same conclusion. Therefore I have suggested we stop using it and use less ambiguous terminology instead. This is how discussion works. If someone provides an argument for why it is useful I will have to consider that argument and decide if my original assertion was wrong.

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ID: c694a7 No.15833

File: 1444740989673.png (417.25 KB, 604x565, 1439761263956.png) ImgOps iqdb

natsoc, obviously.

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ID: fa3558 No.15847

>>15801
>Murray Bookchin
>Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
>Peter Kropotkin
>Amy Goodman
>Leo Tolstoy
>shitty and incorrect

Get a load of this guy...

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ID: 4fd228 No.15868

>>15847

Proudhon and Tolstoy are pretty good, but Kropotkin's kinda dumb.

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ID: 2fb957 No.15869

>>15868
Confirmed for never having read Kropotkin.

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ID: 610fa0 No.15872

File: 1444767492328.jpg (369.43 KB, 1280x1218, 1444640598864.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>15740
>maybe you can join the cops and stomp the punks down
lol that's pretty cool but the problem with authoritarian governments is they can do a lot of good and they can do a lot of evil, I used to live in a very /cyb/ and futuristic megalopolis with an authoritarian government which would constantly breath down our throats and basically not allow ANY fun or freedom at all and I hated it so I was pretty punk there. Now I live under a different authoritarian government which I am content with and I wouldn't really want it to change here unless for the better.

I am a traditionalist in the sense that I believe in traditional values. The way I view the cyberpunk world is really simple, I believe that technology can be used to make the world a much better place and I firmly believe we should spend most of our extra resources on research and science, technology too could be used for much good (medicine) and much evil (nukes) but that doesn't mean we should ban it as a whole, I would say the same for government, it could be used to do horrific things but that doesn't mean it should be abolished, so I guess the label "optimist" would be most accurate for me because I choose to trust in the good side of these things.

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ID: 4fd228 No.15879

>>15869

I have read some of his work. I just find his naturalist arguments for collectivism to be fallacious. Plus, nothing's more annoying than a guy arguing against religion cause "muh science." Like most anarchists, he can present a decent argument against the state, but that's not too hard to begin with. Tolstoy's collectivism is far more humane and respectful of the individual as he doesn't have to deny the reality of the soul to present a good argument for collective ownership and planning, plus mixing anarchism and communism is just really fuarrrking dumb unless it is done within a capitalist framework.

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ID: ea56cb No.15880

>>15879
There's no such thing as anarchism within a capitalist framework.

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ID: 4fd228 No.15890

>>15880

Most intentional communities operate within the framework of capitalist economies themselves. They are established with the starting capital its members acquire in the capitalist economy, they produce goods collectively and often sell those goods collectively in order to support certain needs of the community which it cannot produce for itself, they follow the laws of the states which endorse capitalism and members of the communities are usually free to leave at any time. These sort of communities of collective ownership wouldn't really work any other way. Even if you took the state out of the equation and everyone was living in independent anarcho-syndicalist communes, there'd still likely be trade between communes by exchange of surplus products of each commune's labor because it's unlikely any one commune can be so self-sufficient that it can provide for every need or want of its individual members by itself. The problem is this sort of collectivized capitalism would not be able to function without just turning into another form of state capitalism unless the right of individual capitalists is respected. So there has to be a greater framework of voluntary capitalism that respects the individual and the right to his own private property and the products of his own individual labor for any social anarchist project to be successful, because it's hardly anarchism if people are forced to be part of a collectivism and have no right over what they themselves produce, either to keep it for themselves or contribute it voluntarily to a collective cause.

Anarcho-capitalism permits cooperatives, workers unions and anarcho-syndicalism, provided it's all voluntary and no one is forced to be a part of them even if they feel it no longer serves their interests and no one's private property is being violently seized by some self-righteous collective.

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ID: 5e37b3 No.15903

>>15879
>nothing's more annoying than a guy arguing against religion cause "muh science."

Don't pull the le reddit atheist tips fedora meme. Religion is bull soykaf . You can disagree, but that doesn't change the facts.

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ID: 23c414 No.15906

>>15710
Anarchy isn't a thing that can exist, it's a temporary state in time for which different types of society can (and do) arise through.

Anarcho-socialism is a thing, Anarcho-capitalism is a thing, etc.

The reason Anarcho-capitalism is a thing is because it involves no central government authority, if true anarchy stuck to it's principles 100% no one would be allowed to own or trade anything, not even the keyboard you're typing on right now.

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ID: 4fd228 No.15909

>>15903

Even if you don't believe in any religion, guys like Kropotkin's arguments against it are still pretty juvenile.

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ID: 23c414 No.15912

>>15815
>corporations would be allowed to grow as big as they want to and as big as there is a market demand for their products/services or as big as there are workers who would like to be employed by them.

Not only that, but 100% monopolistic would be impossible, because artificial control of all the land wouldn't exist. Take Standard Oil, which is commonly used as an example of American monopoly, for example; Standard Oil was cut-throat with it's pricing because there was still 15% of the market not owned by them and not willing to sell that constantly tried to sell for lower than them.

The term "capitalism" is entirely misleading in how it registers with people. Sure people are trying to make as much money as they can for themselves, but companies are force to compete for control, not money. If the companies, without artificial regulation keeping them in place, tried to aim at what would always make them the most money, they would lose market share pretty damn fast.

I mean imagine a world where the U.S. government didn't restrict telecomm infrastructure, do you really think we'd be stuck with the high prices and low speeds we're stuck at now? There would be small ISPs cropping up into the marketplace every week, maybe even day.

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ID: e9197c No.15927

>>15872
>I used to live in a very /cyb/ and futuristic megalopolis

Tokyo?

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ID: 9623c6 No.15947

>>15830
no, I'm arguing that only accepting a specific format for your knowledge is severely limiting and will doom you to a specific worldview or set of worldviews despite any attempts at openmindedness

I agree with your terminology however I don't think we should ignore people who use the older terminology, I also think there are some times when the older terminology is still appropriate.

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ID: 1efc94 No.15967

>>15906
>Anarchy isn't a thing that can exist, it's a temporary state in time for which different types of society can (and do) arise through.
But that is factually wrong.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/bakunin-on-anarchism.htm

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ID: c818ba No.15980

Is nihilism an acceptable answer or is it considered cheating?

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ID: f85aa7 No.15982

File: 1444855955646.jpg (142.78 KB, 866x1284, 026.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>15833
my bro

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ID: 028389 No.15984

>>15980
I'm not sure that nihilism constitutes a political ideology in and of itself. However, there are ties between nihilism and individualist anarchism, if that's your thing.

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ID: 6359e0 No.15999

File: 1444874483036.png (54.44 KB, 390x390, Technocracy.png) ImgOps iqdb


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ID: 4fd228 No.16000

>>15984

I wouldn't consider myself a nihilist, but I do find that as someone who responds to individualist anarchism more

I feel revolutions are usually pointless, even in the name of anarchism, except for maybe some kind of "inner revolution" where people just learn to be better human beings and think and act more independently.

When one of my buddies, who's also anarchist leaning but supports some kind of direct democracy, was talking to me today about the democratic national debates today I was just like "man, fuarrrk democracy, who are the 'masses' to try to tell me what to do?"

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ID: e9197c No.16002

>>16000
tyranny of the majority
it is real

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ID: 23c414 No.16003

>>15967

I could write on a peace of paper that one day a magic ball will float into my room and levitate in the air, that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Just because someone writes something in a book, or on the internet, doesn't mean that's based in reality.

Any form of attempted organization of people, whether centralized or decentralized, automatically invalidates Anarchy. Anarchy isn't a system, it's supposed to be the opposite of a system, and any attempt at making society functional or organizing it automatically creates a system.

Anarchy cannot exist beyond a single point because for a social contract, or social rules if you please, to be enforced you need people to do it. You've got to understand that everyone will never unanimously agree on something.

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ID: 23c414 No.16004

>>16000

The United States is a Republic, not a democracy.

However, it's been warped beyond repair since everyone votes for Senators and the President now.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16006

>>16004

Well, my friend was saying his problems with our government is that it isn't a direct democracy while I was addressing our concept of a government based on a concept of "democracy" in general. We both lean towards anarchism, but my reasons are different. I'm just more of the apathetic kind who just wants to be left alone while he's the more communally minded type.

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ID: b6a204 No.16008

How do y'all feel about democratic confederalism?

>http://www.freeocalan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ocalan-Democratic-Confederalism.pdf


Idealistic, egalitarian systems like communism/anarchims, etc. are utopian and all, but I don't think they can executed by humans unless it's on a small scale of like-minded people, such as with a commune

When it's on a larger scale, you get bad human qualities like greed and hunger for power coming through
and in order to enforce these systems on a larger population, you need coercion

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ID: 9623c6 No.16010

>>16008
sounds good to me

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ID: 4fd228 No.16012

>>16008

well, the less people in a community, the more democracy tends to work.

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ID: 97e78e No.16026

Is there such a thing as a mix of anarcho-socialism and technocracy?

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ID: c7172b No.16027

File: 1444907587396.jpg (164.19 KB, 1024x1365, major_kusanagi_motoko_by_e….jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

postcyberpunk tbqh

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ID: aa7eb3 No.16042

>>16027
Was that meant to be a reply to this >>16026

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ID: 98525a No.16066


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ID: c7172b No.16077


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ID: c95234 No.16082

>>16027
Wouldn't that just be a surveillance state where black suits could easily find you?

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ID: b6a204 No.16091

>>16012
Indeed.

I've been thinking about how best to organize a state, and I'm inclined to devolve more power to local elements, so that democracy can truly flourish and local interests aren't passed over in the muddle of federal/provincial politics.
Basically creating a decentralized confederation.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16095

>>16091

Sounds a lot like feudalism to be perfectly honest. My buddy and I, whom I mentioned above, got into a debate about this. I told him that the old feudal system, for all its faults, probably guaranteed a greater amount of liberty, in terms of leisure time, lack of centralized government control/surveillance and greater local autonomy than most governments do today, especially for the peasants who usually had some semi-democratic way of managing themselves with very little direct interference from their local lords who at the end of the day only cared about getting their tribute. My exact words to my friend were "feudalism was probably the closest thing to anarchism we've had."

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ID: b6a204 No.16098

>>16095
I agree, I'm studying imperial Russian history atm. While it's true that serfs had a lot of disadvantages, they also had more freedom than you'd think. Like the freedom to embark on their own enterprise (the basis of their freedom of movement was to seek economic opportunities, since Russia has a short growing season).
They also had their own communal councils (mir/obshchina) to figure out stuff like taxes (which they had to pay as a communal unit).
Most of the time, they dealt with very little government presence - except when the tax collector or conscription came around.

I guess what would separate what I was thinking about from feudalism would be the very institution of serfdom. No one would be bound to the land.

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ID: 0d5a86 No.16124

File: 1444977036660.jpg (13.64 KB, 256x341, BenjaminTucker.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

It keeps happening and I'll keep saying it. The divide between anarchists and anarcho-"capitalists" is semantics and how they define words. To an ancap, capitalism = free market. To a left market anarchist capitalism =/= free market.

https://c4ss.org/content/40654
https://c4ss.org/market-anarchism-faq-2

I want to run my own business and see it flourish free of state intervention as much as the ancaps do. But I also want to run my business free from monopolies that limit and prevent competition, ran by people who would order us into a neo-fuedalist system.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16125

>>16124
>But I also want to run my business free from monopolies that limit and prevent competition, ran by people who would order us into a neo-fuedalist system.

It's absolutely impossible to develop full proof counter measures to that without undermining the principles of the free market and ridding the market of natural competitiveness, which is vital to its diversity and development. The most one can ever hope for is that people just place more sentimental value on human life and liberty than on making money for themselves and perhaps that certain economic incentives will be there for people to generally avoid immoral behavior so as not to put their profits and assets at risk, which government tends to prevent.

It's not an issue of semantics, but of general philosophy. Both Anarcho-capitalists and left market advocates want fairness and free non-violent and voluntary markets. What separates them is that left market advocates tend to think that they can create a free market where there are no losers. Anarcho-capitalists in contrast abandon the utopian ideals for something a bit more cutthroat but ultimately more practical and generally fruitful for the majority of people. Left market advocates want no monopolies, while anarcho-capitalists don't think monopolies are that big of a deal as long as they are earned and the consumers are happy. Left market advocates generally want some kind of planning, while anarcho-capitalists believe in pretty much no planning at all.

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ID: a2e0be No.16126

File: 1444981922696.gif (93.18 KB, 182x250, 1438668214287.gif) ImgOps iqdb

this pretty much sums up the whole anarchoclapitalism debate.

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secFcon.html

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ID: 4fd228 No.16127

>>16126

>Are anarcho-capitalists really anarchists?


Yes, because anarcho-capitalists believe in the deconstruction of the state and its monopoly of force to make people follow its laws rather than their personal conscience and that conscience alone.

>Why do "anarcho"-capitalists place no value on equality?


Because equality in the way left wingers usually understand it is a complete lie and is one of the main ways some have used to force people to live in an atmosphere of bland and ruthless conformity. Anarcho-capitalists do not deny the general equality between human beings. Anarcho-capitalists would gladly defend the rights of a poor farmer from being muscled out of his property from a bigger company or his right to compensation if some spark from a factory lit his barn on fire, no matter how small his property is compared to that of the factory owner. But people aren't cardboard cut-out clones of each other and the vocal proponents of the modern sense of equality generally promote a kind of materialistic sense of equality where people aren't equal unless they all have the same amount of every thing. Anarcho-capitalists believe in an equality of basic human respect and an equality of opportunity, but are not stupid enough to believe there can be an equality of outcome.

>Can there be harmony of interests in an unequal society?


YES. Because in the equal society left wingers envision, nobody has any more needs which can only be satisfied by the cooperation or charity of others because nobody is deprived of anything by circumstance or their own individual limitations. Rich people want to make more money, poor people want to make more money, rich people have the money to give, poor people have the labor, you already have a basic harmony right there.

>Will privatising "the commons" increase liberty?


Countries with the most amount of privatization and economic freedom generally rank highest in all the quality of life indexes. Even in the United States, where the divide between rich and poor is at unprecedented highs, the poor in this country still enjoy a higher quality of living than probably 80% of the world. Plus, the divide between rich and poor has only gotten worse since privatization has decreased and the government has spent more taxpayers money on bull soykaf . People may use Scandinavian countries as an example of why socialism works, but Sweden, Denmark and Norway are more privatized than the USA, which is usually further down the list of countries with high qualities of living and economic freedom than those three former countries who often occupy the top ten/five. Not to mention Switzerland has high economic freedom, is very capitalist and yet its people are generally better off than the Scandinavian monarchies.

Anarcho-capitalists don't claim privatization will stop all the problems of the world, but that's because there is no such thing as a system that can solve all the problems of the world. Meanwhile, this does not mean anarcho-capitalists are against the idea of common property. Without government pooling the resources of everyone, there is likely to be plenty of unclaimed property and abandoned property. Plus, anarcho-capitalists are not against shared property, but shared property between private owners is not the same as property with "no owner" but where every person is fighting to become the sole owner under the pretense of the public good.

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ID: 6c6524 No.16128

>>16127
You are supposed to read the whole text, not just the table of contents.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16130

>>16128

I was addressing the main points. But if you insist,

>Are "anarcho"-capitalists really anarchists?

>In a word, no. While "anarcho"-capitalists obviously try to associate themselves with the anarchist tradition by using the word "anarcho" or by calling themselves "anarchists" their ideas are distinctly at odds with those associated with anarchism. As a result, any claims that their ideas are anarchist or that they are part of the anarchist tradition or movement are false.

Typical anti-ancap fallacy: "muh anarchist tradition." This has never made any sense to me. Anarchism isn't a tradition, it's an ever-changing system of political thought rooted in the philosophical musings and relative values of individual thinkers who identified themselves as anarchists or who influenced those who would. To call Anarchism a tradition is to imply that it has some kind founder whose words and laws are sacrosanct with some appointed group of scholarly authorities who reserve the exclusive right to interpret their meaning for the masses.

>As individual differences are a fact of nature, attempts to create a society based on "equality" (i.e. making everyone identical in terms of possessions and so forth) is impossible and "unnatural." That this would be music to the ears of the wealthy should go without saying.


Whether it's music to the ears of the wealthy is irrelevant and operates under the assumption that rich people wanting to protect their property is somehow wrong.

>Before continuing, we must note that Rothbard is destroying language to make his point and that he is not the first to abuse language in this particular way. In George Orwell's 1984, the expression "all men are created equal" could be translated into Newspeak "but only in the same sense in which All men are redhaired is a possible Oldspeak sentence.


The person who wrote this garbage needs to be slapped. To say all men are created equal is not the same as to say they will remain equal throughout the rest of their lives. It only means that everyone is given the same potential and tools to carve out their own future. Rothbard's understanding of the phrase isn't sophistry, they're the exact way the people who first wrote those words into the Constitution and the Bible understood them and have understood them throughout history.

>"Equality," in the context of political discussion, does not mean "identical," it means equality of rights, respect, worth, power and so forth.


Equality of rights and respect are one thing and wouldn't be an issue to anarcho-capitalists who believe everyone, rich or poor, is equally accountable under the law, but worth and power are another. Worth is something that can be very subjective to begin with and you can't force people to value others at all and you don't necessarily need to see everyone's life as worth the same to value everybody's lives. A good case would be if someone hates themselves so much and sees others as equally worthless. Likewise, a person may see themselves as somehow better than others, but may feel that such a sense of natural or moral superiority comes with responsibilities to help the less fortunate.

In the case of power, you can respect people's right over their own bodies and their own property, but depending on the needs of society, people may need or just naturally acquire more strength than others and I don't see anyway to equalize power here except by way of monopolizing power for yourself by force.

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ID: 0d5a86 No.16137

>>16125
I disagree. I'm not concerned by success, but rather a monopoly on the means of production. I would never advocate actually taking things from any business by force in some mislead attempt to redistribute, because that would be some petty state behavior. Instead, I advocate for peaceful and voluntary establishment of commons through technology and the abolition of intellectual property. I take the open source model as inspiration, while keeping in mind it has worked as well as it has due to a lack of scarcity. With easier and more open access to things, be they blueprints, seeds, or software, people may be able to work for themselves, making competitive products that could benefit consumers.

I agree with ancaps in the assertion that dissolving the state and its regulations would seriously hurt monopolies. In the classic sense of the term "capitalist," or those that hold the means, state regulation is their strongest weapon in maintaining power and keeping would-be competitors weak. At the same time, I believe more may need to be done, but using the state socialist mentality of "no you can't do that we won't let you" would make me a huge fuarrrking glitterboy. Let's create competitive systems that benefit the average joe and encourage enterprise.

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ID: 9edc58 No.16138

>>16027
I love post-cyerpunk and I agree with a lot of it's philosophy.

Anything cool you can recommend to watch/read/listen?

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ID: 3d3faf No.16228

>>16130
By "anarchist tradition" we mean what most people acting as anarchists have actually done.

Which is full fuarrrking communism.

I mean, alternatively, I'm def an ancap, my idea of capitalism is just that there's collective ownership of the means of production to the extent that property doesn't really exist.

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ID: 23c414 No.16241

>>16228

an-cap is anarchist because there's no government with umbrella ownership, just many private individuals with the right to buy and sell land and do whatever the fuarrrk they want on it.

Honestly, in all likely hood people would live in collectives and fortify the land they own in such a reality. Communes/Villages would be the common thing, and thus would satisfy communists.

I don't get all this separation between anarcho-socialism and anarcho-capitalism, because anarchy is simply just anarchy. Everyone would live how they want on the land that they control.

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ID: 06b4da No.16259

>>16138
The Transparent Society
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

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ID: 6c6524 No.16296

>>16241
We disagree on the meaning of anarchy. "Anarcho"-capitalists, a relatively new phenomena, claim it means an absence of government. Meanwhile, every other anarchist understands it as an absence of rulers. Which includes getting rid of bosses.

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ID: 18d3d7 No.16297

File: 1445070843685.gif (876 B, 242x16, CodeCogsEqn(1).gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>15689
Let me think for a minute.
My political views changed quite a bit over the time, and when I say "quite a bit" I mean pic related.
At first I was a full blown communist. Everything should be owned by the people, government should stop existing and everything should be decided by popular demand.
Then /pol/ happened to my young and stupid self and I became really fuarrrking conservative for a long time.
I grew out of it and now I am a mix of libertarian and something really awful waiting deep inside of me that feeds of anger and anti-consumerism.

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ID: 67eec2 No.16299

I never know. A mix between Unabomber, Ernst Junger, far right anarchism, pantheistic neo-paganism, communes, strong sovereign power partisan. I don't believe much in democracy and "freedom to the people" but I don't get off totalitarianism, at all. I want something new. I'm a very conservative from the surface, but I don't think I could be rightly called a fascist.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16303

>>16228
>By "anarchist tradition" we mean what most people acting as anarchists have actually done.

The argument is that because anarcho-capitalism is new and deviates from a previous though somewhat relative norm in the anarchist community (ie 'the tradition'), it's invalid, but the idea that anyone has the exclusive right to define anarchism or what "isms" are permissible is ludicrous. Plus, it assumes too much of continuity and consistency between the anarchist philosophers that one can give such precise and concrete definitions to such subjective terminology. Leo Tolstoy's pro-Christian anarchism is about as different from his fellow Russian Peter Kropotkin's anarchism as American bred anarcho-capitalism is from either. The term tradition tends to imply something along the more religious or cultural level, because a sense of traditionalism, that is the protection and passing on of traditions which are seen as sacred and restricting change to a specific framework, is an important part of what keeps those sorts of identities alive. But I don't think anarchism can or should be considered such an identity.

>>16241

>Communes/Villages would be the common thing, and thus would satisfy communists.


The thing is, in an anarcho-capitalist society, people would still be free to live under some forms of socialism/communism if they wanted to in the same way that we see such communes existing today in peace with the free capitalist economy in various parts of the world. This is because property rights are more protected in these countries. The places that are most severe with such anarchist projects have almost always been the places that are less "capitalist." So I think there's room for anarcho-socialism and anarcho-capitalism to unite as part of a common secessionist movement.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16304

>>16296

>Meanwhile, every other anarchist understands it as an absence of rulers. Which includes getting rid of bosses.


What is your definition of a ruler? What distinguishes ruler from authority or is there anything to distinguish the two at all? In the case of bosses, an anarcho-capitalist could argue that as long as the association between worker and employer is 100% voluntary, there is nothing close to what is normally understood as a ruler/ruled relationship. At the same time, an anarcho-capitalist might argue that the relationship may still be like that of a ruler and the ruled on the superficial level but on the level of the qualitative essence of that relationship, it is different than when the ruled is forced to be under the thumb of the ruler against his own free will. Both of these might be acceptable arguments to an anarchist or a non-anarchist and both would be fairly consistent. Anarcho-capitalists are merely trying to avoid the pitfalls of sometimes vague ideas and terms. Saying "anarchism is against 'government'" allows anarcho-capitalism to be more inclusive of different personal and subjective interpretations of the nuances of anarchist ideology.

A good example that I can give is the phenomenon of Christian anarchism and its understanding of rulers. Christian anarchists do not object to the idea of God as their ruler and the belief that God is their sole ruler is what leads them to reject worldly rulers and principalities that obstruct their free observance of God's laws. In this sense, a Christian anarchist's anarchism becomes an expression of their monarchism in relation to God as their only ruler/king.

What people would misconstrue as anarcho-capitalism's manipulation of language is probably more of an attempt to devise an anarchist system that is more open to individual interpretation and focuses on the main issues like getting guns out of business, reducing state control and putting an end to involuntary labor and consumer relations, which could unite the most collective and the most egoist of anarchists.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16305

>>16299

Sounds like National Anarchism.

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ID: 98222c No.17173

File: 1445781237561.png (28.22 KB, 559x512, capitalism.png) ImgOps iqdb

White Nationalism.

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ID: da7c4d No.17174

primitivist-capitalist post-snowflakist.

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ID: 76971a No.17189

>>15801
I really like the qualifier "and consider myself" in the bototm right, which makes the whole description apply to the entire chart. None of the descriptions are mutially exclusive, actually.
>tfw fundamentalist Christian who was beaten as a child and can't understand any subject with math but still considers themseves sane, rational, and peaceful because they worked through their doubts with the help of shitty incorrect literature

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ID: e9197c No.17197

>>17173
BUWAHA HAhaaa

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ID: c59048 No.17198

whatever lainchan is against

long live freedom

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ID: 598cb1 No.17205

You people need god in your lives!! Jesus saves! I can help you poor people get the devil out! I'm at church now and we can pray together (602) 696-7006! All this gay and lesbian will bring you to hell! Repent your sins!

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ID: 98222c No.17235

File: 1445943095145.jpg (19.86 KB, 423x404, 1366948302837.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>17197
That laugh sounds a little overweight, anon.

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ID: b146d3 No.17236

File: 1445945862991.jpg (62.8 KB, 566x433, GNUke.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

Socialism.

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ID: 34ffae No.17238

I like aspects of minarchy, direct democracy, socialism.

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ID: cab736 No.17239

>>17238
So.. anarchism, basically

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ID: f560df No.17244

File: 1445974327406.jpg (50.77 KB, 480x480, cypherpunk.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

crypto-anarchy!

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ID: e9197c No.17258

>>17235
is that like, an attempt to insinuate that i'm fat?

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ID: fa3558 No.17269

>>17244
For those wondering, the qr code is decoded to "http://www.facebook.com/groups/hhanon040/"

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ID: a3fe01 No.17270

Personally I'm a Kazcynskist and an Odalist

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ID: 1c3471 No.17563

>>15689
open sourced socialism (reveal the influx of money from one lobby to the other lobbies and broadcast it so it is easy to access that info) also humanist, feminist, and apathiest

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ID: d4af41 No.17567

pyrrhonist

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ID: ec1a1c No.17569

>>15704
>m8, anarcho-capitalism is just an edge-master synonym for Laissez-faire capitalism
A tent of which is, according to Wikipedia:
>Corporations are creatures of the State and therefore must be watched closely by the citizenry due to their propensity to disrupt the Smithian spontaneous order
Letting corporations walk over everything isn't exactly watching over them closely to pevent disruption of the Smithian spontaneous order.
If "watched closely" can be interpreted as meaning "prevented from giving their owners disproportionate influence", an argument can be made that mutualism can fit the encyclopediac definition of Laissez-faire capitalism. This allows for mutualist ideas to be spread under the pretense of working within capitalism.

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ID: ec1a1c No.17574

>>17569
>tent
*tenet



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