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File: 1444630521997.jpg (328.61 KB, 1809x1357, 1395436777329.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

ID: 4fd228 No.15689[View All]

What political ideology do lains adhere to or lean towards?
107 posts and 23 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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ID: 23c414 No.16003

>>15967

I could write on a peace of paper that one day a magic ball will float into my room and levitate in the air, that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Just because someone writes something in a book, or on the internet, doesn't mean that's based in reality.

Any form of attempted organization of people, whether centralized or decentralized, automatically invalidates Anarchy. Anarchy isn't a system, it's supposed to be the opposite of a system, and any attempt at making society functional or organizing it automatically creates a system.

Anarchy cannot exist beyond a single point because for a social contract, or social rules if you please, to be enforced you need people to do it. You've got to understand that everyone will never unanimously agree on something.

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ID: 23c414 No.16004

>>16000

The United States is a Republic, not a democracy.

However, it's been warped beyond repair since everyone votes for Senators and the President now.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16006

>>16004

Well, my friend was saying his problems with our government is that it isn't a direct democracy while I was addressing our concept of a government based on a concept of "democracy" in general. We both lean towards anarchism, but my reasons are different. I'm just more of the apathetic kind who just wants to be left alone while he's the more communally minded type.

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ID: b6a204 No.16008

How do y'all feel about democratic confederalism?

>http://www.freeocalan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ocalan-Democratic-Confederalism.pdf


Idealistic, egalitarian systems like communism/anarchims, etc. are utopian and all, but I don't think they can executed by humans unless it's on a small scale of like-minded people, such as with a commune

When it's on a larger scale, you get bad human qualities like greed and hunger for power coming through
and in order to enforce these systems on a larger population, you need coercion

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ID: 9623c6 No.16010

>>16008
sounds good to me

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ID: 4fd228 No.16012

>>16008

well, the less people in a community, the more democracy tends to work.

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ID: 97e78e No.16026

Is there such a thing as a mix of anarcho-socialism and technocracy?

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ID: c7172b No.16027

File: 1444907587396.jpg (164.19 KB, 1024x1365, major_kusanagi_motoko_by_e….jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

postcyberpunk tbqh

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ID: aa7eb3 No.16042

>>16027
Was that meant to be a reply to this >>16026

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ID: 98525a No.16066


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ID: c7172b No.16077


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ID: c95234 No.16082

>>16027
Wouldn't that just be a surveillance state where black suits could easily find you?

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ID: b6a204 No.16091

>>16012
Indeed.

I've been thinking about how best to organize a state, and I'm inclined to devolve more power to local elements, so that democracy can truly flourish and local interests aren't passed over in the muddle of federal/provincial politics.
Basically creating a decentralized confederation.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16095

>>16091

Sounds a lot like feudalism to be perfectly honest. My buddy and I, whom I mentioned above, got into a debate about this. I told him that the old feudal system, for all its faults, probably guaranteed a greater amount of liberty, in terms of leisure time, lack of centralized government control/surveillance and greater local autonomy than most governments do today, especially for the peasants who usually had some semi-democratic way of managing themselves with very little direct interference from their local lords who at the end of the day only cared about getting their tribute. My exact words to my friend were "feudalism was probably the closest thing to anarchism we've had."

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ID: b6a204 No.16098

>>16095
I agree, I'm studying imperial Russian history atm. While it's true that serfs had a lot of disadvantages, they also had more freedom than you'd think. Like the freedom to embark on their own enterprise (the basis of their freedom of movement was to seek economic opportunities, since Russia has a short growing season).
They also had their own communal councils (mir/obshchina) to figure out stuff like taxes (which they had to pay as a communal unit).
Most of the time, they dealt with very little government presence - except when the tax collector or conscription came around.

I guess what would separate what I was thinking about from feudalism would be the very institution of serfdom. No one would be bound to the land.

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ID: 0d5a86 No.16124

File: 1444977036660.jpg (13.64 KB, 256x341, BenjaminTucker.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

It keeps happening and I'll keep saying it. The divide between anarchists and anarcho-"capitalists" is semantics and how they define words. To an ancap, capitalism = free market. To a left market anarchist capitalism =/= free market.

https://c4ss.org/content/40654
https://c4ss.org/market-anarchism-faq-2

I want to run my own business and see it flourish free of state intervention as much as the ancaps do. But I also want to run my business free from monopolies that limit and prevent competition, ran by people who would order us into a neo-fuedalist system.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16125

>>16124
>But I also want to run my business free from monopolies that limit and prevent competition, ran by people who would order us into a neo-fuedalist system.

It's absolutely impossible to develop full proof counter measures to that without undermining the principles of the free market and ridding the market of natural competitiveness, which is vital to its diversity and development. The most one can ever hope for is that people just place more sentimental value on human life and liberty than on making money for themselves and perhaps that certain economic incentives will be there for people to generally avoid immoral behavior so as not to put their profits and assets at risk, which government tends to prevent.

It's not an issue of semantics, but of general philosophy. Both Anarcho-capitalists and left market advocates want fairness and free non-violent and voluntary markets. What separates them is that left market advocates tend to think that they can create a free market where there are no losers. Anarcho-capitalists in contrast abandon the utopian ideals for something a bit more cutthroat but ultimately more practical and generally fruitful for the majority of people. Left market advocates want no monopolies, while anarcho-capitalists don't think monopolies are that big of a deal as long as they are earned and the consumers are happy. Left market advocates generally want some kind of planning, while anarcho-capitalists believe in pretty much no planning at all.

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ID: a2e0be No.16126

File: 1444981922696.gif (93.18 KB, 182x250, 1438668214287.gif) ImgOps iqdb

this pretty much sums up the whole anarchoclapitalism debate.

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secFcon.html

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ID: 4fd228 No.16127

>>16126

>Are anarcho-capitalists really anarchists?


Yes, because anarcho-capitalists believe in the deconstruction of the state and its monopoly of force to make people follow its laws rather than their personal conscience and that conscience alone.

>Why do "anarcho"-capitalists place no value on equality?


Because equality in the way left wingers usually understand it is a complete lie and is one of the main ways some have used to force people to live in an atmosphere of bland and ruthless conformity. Anarcho-capitalists do not deny the general equality between human beings. Anarcho-capitalists would gladly defend the rights of a poor farmer from being muscled out of his property from a bigger company or his right to compensation if some spark from a factory lit his barn on fire, no matter how small his property is compared to that of the factory owner. But people aren't cardboard cut-out clones of each other and the vocal proponents of the modern sense of equality generally promote a kind of materialistic sense of equality where people aren't equal unless they all have the same amount of every thing. Anarcho-capitalists believe in an equality of basic human respect and an equality of opportunity, but are not stupid enough to believe there can be an equality of outcome.

>Can there be harmony of interests in an unequal society?


YES. Because in the equal society left wingers envision, nobody has any more needs which can only be satisfied by the cooperation or charity of others because nobody is deprived of anything by circumstance or their own individual limitations. Rich people want to make more money, poor people want to make more money, rich people have the money to give, poor people have the labor, you already have a basic harmony right there.

>Will privatising "the commons" increase liberty?


Countries with the most amount of privatization and economic freedom generally rank highest in all the quality of life indexes. Even in the United States, where the divide between rich and poor is at unprecedented highs, the poor in this country still enjoy a higher quality of living than probably 80% of the world. Plus, the divide between rich and poor has only gotten worse since privatization has decreased and the government has spent more taxpayers money on bull soykaf . People may use Scandinavian countries as an example of why socialism works, but Sweden, Denmark and Norway are more privatized than the USA, which is usually further down the list of countries with high qualities of living and economic freedom than those three former countries who often occupy the top ten/five. Not to mention Switzerland has high economic freedom, is very capitalist and yet its people are generally better off than the Scandinavian monarchies.

Anarcho-capitalists don't claim privatization will stop all the problems of the world, but that's because there is no such thing as a system that can solve all the problems of the world. Meanwhile, this does not mean anarcho-capitalists are against the idea of common property. Without government pooling the resources of everyone, there is likely to be plenty of unclaimed property and abandoned property. Plus, anarcho-capitalists are not against shared property, but shared property between private owners is not the same as property with "no owner" but where every person is fighting to become the sole owner under the pretense of the public good.

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ID: 6c6524 No.16128

>>16127
You are supposed to read the whole text, not just the table of contents.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16130

>>16128

I was addressing the main points. But if you insist,

>Are "anarcho"-capitalists really anarchists?

>In a word, no. While "anarcho"-capitalists obviously try to associate themselves with the anarchist tradition by using the word "anarcho" or by calling themselves "anarchists" their ideas are distinctly at odds with those associated with anarchism. As a result, any claims that their ideas are anarchist or that they are part of the anarchist tradition or movement are false.

Typical anti-ancap fallacy: "muh anarchist tradition." This has never made any sense to me. Anarchism isn't a tradition, it's an ever-changing system of political thought rooted in the philosophical musings and relative values of individual thinkers who identified themselves as anarchists or who influenced those who would. To call Anarchism a tradition is to imply that it has some kind founder whose words and laws are sacrosanct with some appointed group of scholarly authorities who reserve the exclusive right to interpret their meaning for the masses.

>As individual differences are a fact of nature, attempts to create a society based on "equality" (i.e. making everyone identical in terms of possessions and so forth) is impossible and "unnatural." That this would be music to the ears of the wealthy should go without saying.


Whether it's music to the ears of the wealthy is irrelevant and operates under the assumption that rich people wanting to protect their property is somehow wrong.

>Before continuing, we must note that Rothbard is destroying language to make his point and that he is not the first to abuse language in this particular way. In George Orwell's 1984, the expression "all men are created equal" could be translated into Newspeak "but only in the same sense in which All men are redhaired is a possible Oldspeak sentence.


The person who wrote this garbage needs to be slapped. To say all men are created equal is not the same as to say they will remain equal throughout the rest of their lives. It only means that everyone is given the same potential and tools to carve out their own future. Rothbard's understanding of the phrase isn't sophistry, they're the exact way the people who first wrote those words into the Constitution and the Bible understood them and have understood them throughout history.

>"Equality," in the context of political discussion, does not mean "identical," it means equality of rights, respect, worth, power and so forth.


Equality of rights and respect are one thing and wouldn't be an issue to anarcho-capitalists who believe everyone, rich or poor, is equally accountable under the law, but worth and power are another. Worth is something that can be very subjective to begin with and you can't force people to value others at all and you don't necessarily need to see everyone's life as worth the same to value everybody's lives. A good case would be if someone hates themselves so much and sees others as equally worthless. Likewise, a person may see themselves as somehow better than others, but may feel that such a sense of natural or moral superiority comes with responsibilities to help the less fortunate.

In the case of power, you can respect people's right over their own bodies and their own property, but depending on the needs of society, people may need or just naturally acquire more strength than others and I don't see anyway to equalize power here except by way of monopolizing power for yourself by force.

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ID: 0d5a86 No.16137

>>16125
I disagree. I'm not concerned by success, but rather a monopoly on the means of production. I would never advocate actually taking things from any business by force in some mislead attempt to redistribute, because that would be some petty state behavior. Instead, I advocate for peaceful and voluntary establishment of commons through technology and the abolition of intellectual property. I take the open source model as inspiration, while keeping in mind it has worked as well as it has due to a lack of scarcity. With easier and more open access to things, be they blueprints, seeds, or software, people may be able to work for themselves, making competitive products that could benefit consumers.

I agree with ancaps in the assertion that dissolving the state and its regulations would seriously hurt monopolies. In the classic sense of the term "capitalist," or those that hold the means, state regulation is their strongest weapon in maintaining power and keeping would-be competitors weak. At the same time, I believe more may need to be done, but using the state socialist mentality of "no you can't do that we won't let you" would make me a huge fuarrrking glitterboy. Let's create competitive systems that benefit the average joe and encourage enterprise.

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ID: 9edc58 No.16138

>>16027
I love post-cyerpunk and I agree with a lot of it's philosophy.

Anything cool you can recommend to watch/read/listen?

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ID: 3d3faf No.16228

>>16130
By "anarchist tradition" we mean what most people acting as anarchists have actually done.

Which is full fuarrrking communism.

I mean, alternatively, I'm def an ancap, my idea of capitalism is just that there's collective ownership of the means of production to the extent that property doesn't really exist.

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ID: 23c414 No.16241

>>16228

an-cap is anarchist because there's no government with umbrella ownership, just many private individuals with the right to buy and sell land and do whatever the fuarrrk they want on it.

Honestly, in all likely hood people would live in collectives and fortify the land they own in such a reality. Communes/Villages would be the common thing, and thus would satisfy communists.

I don't get all this separation between anarcho-socialism and anarcho-capitalism, because anarchy is simply just anarchy. Everyone would live how they want on the land that they control.

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ID: 06b4da No.16259

>>16138
The Transparent Society
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

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ID: 6c6524 No.16296

>>16241
We disagree on the meaning of anarchy. "Anarcho"-capitalists, a relatively new phenomena, claim it means an absence of government. Meanwhile, every other anarchist understands it as an absence of rulers. Which includes getting rid of bosses.

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ID: 18d3d7 No.16297

File: 1445070843685.gif (876 B, 242x16, CodeCogsEqn(1).gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>15689
Let me think for a minute.
My political views changed quite a bit over the time, and when I say "quite a bit" I mean pic related.
At first I was a full blown communist. Everything should be owned by the people, government should stop existing and everything should be decided by popular demand.
Then /pol/ happened to my young and stupid self and I became really fuarrrking conservative for a long time.
I grew out of it and now I am a mix of libertarian and something really awful waiting deep inside of me that feeds of anger and anti-consumerism.

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ID: 67eec2 No.16299

I never know. A mix between Unabomber, Ernst Junger, far right anarchism, pantheistic neo-paganism, communes, strong sovereign power partisan. I don't believe much in democracy and "freedom to the people" but I don't get off totalitarianism, at all. I want something new. I'm a very conservative from the surface, but I don't think I could be rightly called a fascist.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16303

>>16228
>By "anarchist tradition" we mean what most people acting as anarchists have actually done.

The argument is that because anarcho-capitalism is new and deviates from a previous though somewhat relative norm in the anarchist community (ie 'the tradition'), it's invalid, but the idea that anyone has the exclusive right to define anarchism or what "isms" are permissible is ludicrous. Plus, it assumes too much of continuity and consistency between the anarchist philosophers that one can give such precise and concrete definitions to such subjective terminology. Leo Tolstoy's pro-Christian anarchism is about as different from his fellow Russian Peter Kropotkin's anarchism as American bred anarcho-capitalism is from either. The term tradition tends to imply something along the more religious or cultural level, because a sense of traditionalism, that is the protection and passing on of traditions which are seen as sacred and restricting change to a specific framework, is an important part of what keeps those sorts of identities alive. But I don't think anarchism can or should be considered such an identity.

>>16241

>Communes/Villages would be the common thing, and thus would satisfy communists.


The thing is, in an anarcho-capitalist society, people would still be free to live under some forms of socialism/communism if they wanted to in the same way that we see such communes existing today in peace with the free capitalist economy in various parts of the world. This is because property rights are more protected in these countries. The places that are most severe with such anarchist projects have almost always been the places that are less "capitalist." So I think there's room for anarcho-socialism and anarcho-capitalism to unite as part of a common secessionist movement.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16304

>>16296

>Meanwhile, every other anarchist understands it as an absence of rulers. Which includes getting rid of bosses.


What is your definition of a ruler? What distinguishes ruler from authority or is there anything to distinguish the two at all? In the case of bosses, an anarcho-capitalist could argue that as long as the association between worker and employer is 100% voluntary, there is nothing close to what is normally understood as a ruler/ruled relationship. At the same time, an anarcho-capitalist might argue that the relationship may still be like that of a ruler and the ruled on the superficial level but on the level of the qualitative essence of that relationship, it is different than when the ruled is forced to be under the thumb of the ruler against his own free will. Both of these might be acceptable arguments to an anarchist or a non-anarchist and both would be fairly consistent. Anarcho-capitalists are merely trying to avoid the pitfalls of sometimes vague ideas and terms. Saying "anarchism is against 'government'" allows anarcho-capitalism to be more inclusive of different personal and subjective interpretations of the nuances of anarchist ideology.

A good example that I can give is the phenomenon of Christian anarchism and its understanding of rulers. Christian anarchists do not object to the idea of God as their ruler and the belief that God is their sole ruler is what leads them to reject worldly rulers and principalities that obstruct their free observance of God's laws. In this sense, a Christian anarchist's anarchism becomes an expression of their monarchism in relation to God as their only ruler/king.

What people would misconstrue as anarcho-capitalism's manipulation of language is probably more of an attempt to devise an anarchist system that is more open to individual interpretation and focuses on the main issues like getting guns out of business, reducing state control and putting an end to involuntary labor and consumer relations, which could unite the most collective and the most egoist of anarchists.

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ID: 4fd228 No.16305

>>16299

Sounds like National Anarchism.

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ID: 98222c No.17173

File: 1445781237561.png (28.22 KB, 559x512, capitalism.png) ImgOps iqdb

White Nationalism.

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ID: da7c4d No.17174

primitivist-capitalist post-snowflakist.

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ID: 76971a No.17189

>>15801
I really like the qualifier "and consider myself" in the bototm right, which makes the whole description apply to the entire chart. None of the descriptions are mutially exclusive, actually.
>tfw fundamentalist Christian who was beaten as a child and can't understand any subject with math but still considers themseves sane, rational, and peaceful because they worked through their doubts with the help of shitty incorrect literature

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ID: e9197c No.17197

>>17173
BUWAHA HAhaaa

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ID: c59048 No.17198

whatever lainchan is against

long live freedom

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ID: 598cb1 No.17205

You people need god in your lives!! Jesus saves! I can help you poor people get the devil out! I'm at church now and we can pray together (602) 696-7006! All this gay and lesbian will bring you to hell! Repent your sins!

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ID: 98222c No.17235

File: 1445943095145.jpg (19.86 KB, 423x404, 1366948302837.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>17197
That laugh sounds a little overweight, anon.

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ID: b146d3 No.17236

File: 1445945862991.jpg (62.8 KB, 566x433, GNUke.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

Socialism.

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ID: 34ffae No.17238

I like aspects of minarchy, direct democracy, socialism.

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ID: cab736 No.17239

>>17238
So.. anarchism, basically

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ID: f560df No.17244

File: 1445974327406.jpg (50.77 KB, 480x480, cypherpunk.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

crypto-anarchy!

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ID: e9197c No.17258

>>17235
is that like, an attempt to insinuate that i'm fat?

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ID: fa3558 No.17269

>>17244
For those wondering, the qr code is decoded to "http://www.facebook.com/groups/hhanon040/"

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ID: a3fe01 No.17270

Personally I'm a Kazcynskist and an Odalist

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ID: 1c3471 No.17563

>>15689
open sourced socialism (reveal the influx of money from one lobby to the other lobbies and broadcast it so it is easy to access that info) also humanist, feminist, and apathiest

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ID: d4af41 No.17567

pyrrhonist

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ID: ec1a1c No.17569

>>15704
>m8, anarcho-capitalism is just an edge-master synonym for Laissez-faire capitalism
A tent of which is, according to Wikipedia:
>Corporations are creatures of the State and therefore must be watched closely by the citizenry due to their propensity to disrupt the Smithian spontaneous order
Letting corporations walk over everything isn't exactly watching over them closely to pevent disruption of the Smithian spontaneous order.
If "watched closely" can be interpreted as meaning "prevented from giving their owners disproportionate influence", an argument can be made that mutualism can fit the encyclopediac definition of Laissez-faire capitalism. This allows for mutualist ideas to be spread under the pretense of working within capitalism.

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ID: ec1a1c No.17574

>>17569
>tent
*tenet



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