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 No.19332[Last 50 Posts]

What have you done today to soykaf the system?

The last thread hit the reply limit:
https://lainchan.org/cyb/res/12031.html
However:
>Here are some good sauces:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participism
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_Democracy

>Also keep in mind:

>Libertarian socialists believe in converting present-day private property into the commons while retaining respect for personal property.

1)Keep the discussion civilised, because we the proletariat should burn the system, not each other :P
2)Try to read the old thread first
>>

 No.19334

File: 1447585792585.png (445.65 KB, 1040x540, we-live-in-perverted-times.png) ImgOps iqdb

Next time please include the Anarchist Library in the OP:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/
It's such a great resource!

>>

 No.19335

>we the proletariat

I'm kind of terrified that our last hope for political action lies with the proles, because Capitalism is doing away with them entirely.

There's some real hope that as mechanization progresses and labor jobs cease to exist, that the mass unemployment and class agitation will politicize the underclasses again, but how many lainons are actually proletariat? Overwhelmingly, I'd imagine we're either lumpenprole NEETS and precariat deskslaves, with the occasional upper-middle corporate success story.

>>

 No.19336

There is no system.

>>

 No.19339

>>19335
Being a NEET is actually pretty close to being a part of the proletariat. You don't have to be employed to be part of it.

>>

 No.19341

>>19332
"don't forget to eat your lunch and make some trouble"
I can't explain why, but I absolutely love that image.

>>

 No.19344

I don't know much about anarchism, but I'm interested. What book should I start with?

>>

 No.19346

>>19344
If you do not mind taking some heavy books, start with Mikhail Bakhunin. He is to Anarchism what Marx and Engels are to Socialism.

Also should we ask Kalyx to archive the old thread?

>>

 No.19347

>>19332
How can you be free in a socialist state?

What if I want to make a giant multinational corporation? am I free to do that? There is no difference between private property and personal property. This edgemastery is gross.

>>

 No.19349

>>19335
>Capitalism is doing away with them entirely.

You're probably a prole and don't know it. If:

-you don't have stock options
-you make less than 6 figures
-you don't have the financial freedom to just walk out of your current job

chances are, you're a prole.

>>19347
>state
>anarchism

You'd be free to, but your corporation would have no rights to oppress its workers or to hold private property. So if you tried to run a corporation the way they're run these days it would fail disastrously.

>How can you be free in a socialist state?


I dunno, socialists have this weird idea that it's okay to oppress people if you're doing it for the right reasons.

>>

 No.19350

>>19347
How can you be free in a socialist state?
>read the old thread
It's about having a flat hierarchy with direct democracy.

>>

 No.19351

>How can you be free in a socialist state?
You also should separate cultural from economic policies.
>economic socialism
>cultural freedom

>>

 No.19352

>>19349
for those who don't know.

>In Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, proles (collective noun) refers to the working class of Oceania (i.e. the proletariat). Oceania's society is divided into three distinct classes: Inner Party, Outer Party and proles (with their own upper, middle and lower classes).


on an unrelated note. I remember finding a website about some new form of democracy where people would vote for representatives in a smaller group or something? I think it involved techonology maybe cryptocurrencies

>>

 No.19353

>>19349
>but your corporation would have no rights to oppress its workers
Translation: Your corporation and its employees would not have the right to determine their wages and working conditions based on the labor market and would instead have the validity of their private contractual arrangements determined by the all-mighty state. Praise be to it.

>>

 No.19354

>>19353
It's anarchism, bro. There is no state or wages.
Learn some shit, will ya?

>>

 No.19355

>>19354
Then who stops the corporations from "oppressing" the workers? Some central authority that we call something other than "the state"?

>>

 No.19356

>>19355
Nobody does, the corporations don't have any power over the workers, the worker can just leave if he's mistreated.

>>

 No.19357

>>19356
Okay, well, we don't disagree there.

What incentivizes the worker if there are no wages? How exactly does an economy with no wages and no central authority work?

>>

 No.19358

>>19355
They can't exploit the workers because there's no state that can enforce private property rights. If there was one, it wouldn't be anarchy.

>>

 No.19359

>>19357
Well, when you get that deep into it, it really depends on who you're talking to, since there's a lot of opinions about.
In MY humble opinion, the stateless economy works by social pressure (the need to do something), the desire to help the rest (somebody's gotta make bread, and provide electricity and so on), and good old arrogance (the desire to make something better than the rest).

>>

 No.19360

>>19355
>>19356
additionally you can have a government without the state. The purpose of any "state" is to enforce the right to private property(hence the term "estate"), whereas the purpose of a government is to organize people. An anarchist government would have no heirarchy.

>>19357
There are as many economic models as there are anarchists. My favorite is one where all industries are self-managed and send their outputs to the local government, who distributes their outputs fairly among the populace and trades with other governments through a gift economy to get things that are in shortage. But an actual anarchist economy would probably be a mixed bag of all sorts of soykaf . The key part is that everything is heirarchy-free as much as possible, so that power doesn't collect in certain places.

As for how to incentivize workers, I think >>19359 got it.

>>

 No.19361

>>19360
I'm >>19359 and I kinda disagree with you.
I've heard your opinion coming from a lot of intelligent people, and I just don't get it.
Your government has inherent power over the rest, after all, it is them who decides who gets what, and if themselves are getting a lot more electronics than the rest when there's clearly a shortage of that, it causes a problem, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be more logical if it were the producers who distributed their products to the community? After all, they're the producers, it's not like they're going to steal what they produce, because it's theirs to begin with, and they could've done that before giving it to the local government anyway.

>>

 No.19362

>>19359
>In MY humble opinion, the stateless economy works by social pressure (the need to do something), the desire to help the rest (somebody's gotta make bread, and provide electricity and so on), and good old arrogance (the desire to make something better than the rest).
Apologies if I came off as antagonizing earlier, a lot of the posts in the last thread leaned way more toward state socialism than anything that I could construe as anarchism, with anti-corporate attitudes that I think stem from perceiving a difference between individual and group actions and the freedom each merits.

I will say, leaning more politically toward a classical liberal or minarchist philosophy, I think the idea of suppressing the natural urges man evolved with like greed and competitiveness in the economic spectrum rather than utilizing them as a driving force requires a bit more faith in the hearts and minds of man than I feel I have at this point in my life.

I think we simply disagree on whether we can expect man to function as a group instead of an individual.

>>

 No.19363

>>19362
That's the usual reason a lot of people don't buy on anarchism, but I don't know, I think it can really work, since it kinda already does.

We live in a capitalist society, where everyone is forced to compete against their fellow men, without any care for them (as long as it's inside the rules or you're powerful enough). And yet, people still don't care about that when it comes to family (and sometimes friend), and they just share their things, give away expensive stuff and so on.

The reason why this happens is because families (and again, sometimes friends) are small groups of people, bonded by care for the other, something which you can't have for someone you don't or at least, you barely know. But you can have a bunch of small communities, and it would work well, actually, it's the only way in which this would work, since it's ridiculous to have currency and competition when you know everybody in your group. Sure, you might not like everybody, but they're your group, aren't they?

>>

 No.19365

>>19361
When I say "government" it's a little looser than that. Really it's just a way to get coordination between the different producers, so that the logistics don't get screwed up. For instance, if some part of the region really needs more housing, they can go to the government who organizes a bunch of construction workers together and supplies them with lumber and nails, rather than leaving it up to the citizens who need the houses to try and organize it all themselves(while also, presumably, working other jobs). The government would be run by the people through some sort of temporary volunteer system, so I don't think there would be a problem of uneven balances of power except in times of dire shortage(in which case I don't think anarchism is the answer).

Being an anarchio-syndicalist I'm tempted to call the "government" a syndicate, but that would just confuse things, wouldn't it.

>>

 No.19366

>>19363
I think you're right on the money, I would argue that this is because of Dunbar's number, and the result of society evolving faster than our primate brains can keep up. We lack empathy for the world around us simply because those social parts of our brain evolved prior to and during the agricultural revolution when we only had to maintain small social networks.

Maybe we'll make it back to those days of small, semi-nomadic clans, but not without the world falling apart first. The industrial revolution shows no signs of stopping and the state is pretty entrenched in everything by this point. But our economy is also built on a house of cards, so who knows how that soykaf will play out.

>>

 No.19367

>>19366
I'm personally pretty confident that neoliberalism will kill itself within my lifetime. You can see the seams starting to burst already. The question is, will it be replaced by something better, something worse, or chaos where anarchist communities can thrive?

>>

 No.19369

There's another problem I've felt with anarchist ideas and housing, I'm hoping you guys will help me think about it.

When there's an established community, where everyone lives, and there's a bunch of organized people who build houses I can see two situations coming up:

1) Nobody ever needs a house, so they don't have any work, and they start feeling the need of getting a different job, and completely drop the housemaking job, which would be a big problem if somebody ever needs a house. Even if they don't completely drop the job of housemaking, quality housemaking requires full attention and learning to be done right, and making a bunch of half-assed houses is not okay, considering the earth tries to kill us once in a while, almost everywhere.

2) We might not be okay with everyone who wants to live with us, since after all, they're the people who we trust. But most of the time it should be okay for somebody to come to our house, unless there's a clear reason not to, and it shouldn't be based upon prejudice, nationalism or racial issues, for example.

I think that wouldn't be a problem, since everyone has the same power in the community, and they're used to being nice to each other.

But everyone who comes to a new community for any reason needs a house, what happens if the housemakers specifically have a problem against, say, homosexuals, and completely boycott their entry to the community? How will they get a house?

>>

 No.19370

I feel like social anarchism is right, and neoliberalism is wrong. Therefore, it follows that the right thing to do is to give all my power to moving society from point A to point B. But how could I do that? I feel like protests and other violent methods are useless, and activism doesn't do much either. What should I do, then?

>>

 No.19371

>>19367
>The question is, will it be replaced by something better, something worse, or chaos where anarchist communities can thrive?
Neo-liberalism is already taking it's dying breaths, which is a shame because I honestly do feel it's the only economic philosophy that can work in a society of such size and maintain any degree of freedom for it's populace.

If I had to guess, we're either moving toward state-socialism or plutocracy, depending on whether the government or large corporations own all the robots once manual labor is no longer necessary for production. I'm not looking forward to it either way.

>>

 No.19373

>>19369
>1) Nobody ever needs a house, so they don't have any work, and they start feeling the need of getting a different job, and completely drop the housemaking job, which would be a big problem if somebody ever needs a house. Even if they don't completely drop the job of housemaking, quality housemaking requires full attention and learning to be done right, and making a bunch of half-assed houses is not okay, considering the earth tries to kill us once in a while, almost everywhere.

There's almost always need for new buildings in a healthy economy. This probably wouldn't be any more of a problem in an anarchist economy than it is in our current economy.

>But everyone who comes to a new community for any reason needs a house, what happens if the housemakers specifically have a problem against, say, homosexuals, and completely boycott their entry to the community? How will they get a house?


Alas, anarchism doesn't solve all problems. The only real way to fix this is if the rest of the population puts heavy social pressure on the housemakers to do it.

>>19370
wait for the current system to fall apart, then join some anarchist community.

>>

 No.19374

>>19373
>There's almost always need for new buildings in a healthy economy.
Why do you think that? Because people are looking to replace their houses with something new? Wouldn't that create a very neoliberalism-like bubble? Sure, maybe there's always a need for new houses in a country-sized territory, but I don't think there would be a need in a community-sized one.

>the population puts heavy social pressure on the housemakers

Well, I guess you're right.

>>

 No.19375

>>19371
>I honestly do feel it's the only economic philosophy that can work in a society of such size and maintain any degree of freedom for it's populace.

eh, if you mean the global society you're probably right, but we're approaching the point where you don't need a globalized economy to maintain a high standard of living.

>>19374
>Why do you think that? Because people are looking to replace their houses with something new? Wouldn't that create a very neoliberalism-like bubble? Sure, maybe there's always a need for new houses in a country-sized territory, but I don't think there would be a need in a community-sized one.

A housemaker doesn't need to only build houses, they can build all sorts of buildings. And if the population is growing normally, there will be a need for both houses and new buildings for industry and public works, and buildings will need to be renovated from time to time. If you widen your scope from "housemaker" to "carpenter" or "construction worker", and you can see that their skills are useful all the time everywhere. And if your community is small enough, it's actually really important that everyone learns second or third trades so you don't end up with a labor shortage in times of crisis.

>>

 No.19378

>>19336
can you elaborate?

>>19370
one method I've read about is direct conversion of private property into public property - either by establishing your own property as public to the degree that you are comfortable or by reclaiming private property for the community. or both

this comes with an understanding of your community and organizations / social structures within

get involved with volunteer work and community service to the extent that you are able
>>19352
was it democratic confederalism? http://www.freeocalan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ocalan-Democratic-Confederalism.pdf

>>

 No.19379

>>19346
who else wants to see the old thread archived?

>>

 No.19385

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IMHO, humanity might not be ready for anarchism. But anarchism should be tried out on larger and larger communes spread out evenly around the world. While most people are not ready,some certainly are.

>>

 No.19389

File: 1447630441752.png (1.4 MB, 1280x720, Squidbillies - season 8.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>19379
I found it to be full of embarrassing posts which prompted the non-anarchist, non-socialist visitors here to ask some very pertinent questions which were responded to with even more embarrassing answers. You know when there's a terror attack and some Muslims speak up and say "but those aren't my beliefs, they don't represent me" well that last thread made me feel kind of like that.

>>

 No.19394

>>19334
is there a compilation of it or is this my first task to do in python?

>>

 No.19400

>>19394
First task. Go ahead, share results.

>>

 No.19401

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>>19332
>privillage

>>

 No.19411

>>19394
Compilation?
There's a torrent of the whole site, but it's a bit dated now:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/special/distro
And there's a bookbuilder:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/bookbuilder

>>

 No.19424

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>>19332
>>19335
>we the proletariat
The proletariat is dead, lainons; we precariat now.

read ur Standing

>>

 No.19436

>>19344
I would recommend not starting with anything written before 1950. Start by reading Crimethinc, insurrectionists, and maybe contemporary Platformists.

Old stuff is less relevant, IMO. fetishist devotion to dead leaders isn't very anarchist.

>>

 No.19438

>>19362
You don't understand how malleable people are.

There really is no such thing as human nature. Humans are too complex to have genetically programmed behavior, and we have a general mechanism for programming new behaviors, aka "learning."

If you study psychology you'll find that it's quite easy to get people to do basically whatever you want. People will deny their own eyes in order to conform to group opinions. People will shock each other to death if you tell them to in a stern voice.

But the basic concept all of it boils down to is that if you can construct a situation, or even the perception of a situation, you can influence behavior immensely.

An immediate corollary to this is that we are living in a situation that greatly alters our behavior. We have learned certain behavior patterns. But nothing suggests these can't be replaced.

>>

 No.19439

>>19438
>You don't understand how malleable people are.
The fact that people are malleable is exactly the reason that anarchy doesn't work.

Mould people into accepting anarchy, and they might practice it for a time, but eventually circumstances will mould them into something else, and without power holding the system together, it will change with them.

One reality of human nature is that even in an "ideal" system, there will always be people trying to change it. Anarchy has minimal power to resist change.

>>

 No.19449

>>19436
What would you recommend from the insurrectionists? Other than Armed Joy.

>>

 No.19452

>>19439
so? no system is gonna last forever. are you saying there's one that should?

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 No.19454

>>19452
Extinction!

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 No.19455

>>19454
I'm sure an anarcho-transhumanist would disagree with you on that one

>>

 No.19456

>>19449
Just read random zines, trying to get as close as possible to people actually risking something.

>>

 No.19457

>>19439
>thinking the state sets culture norms

>>

 No.19464

Who are you to dictate my rights (and by extension) the rights of my business? Is there a board that decides what equates to freedom and what equates to oppression?

Are my rights dictated by the mob?

That's why I disagree with Socialism in all it's forms on a fundamental level. Within a capitalist state, you are free to form your communes and your squats, you can go off into the woods with a bunch of like minded individuals, and in ideal circumstances sever ties to the government. You couldn't do that in a state without a free market.

Your system however the purportedly "free" system is completely unable to accommodate my beliefs. A Socialist society is a society with a bureaucracy on a monumental scale, otherwise it is an ineffective society (quality of life wise). The quality of life in places like Canada, Norway, Sweden, and all those other Nordic shitholes is propped up by a huge bureaucracy, you need a license or a form to do everything, the government takes all your money in taxes, the people are dumb and incredibly complacent. Growing up in Canada it felt like it was just bread and circuses and there was this huge disdain for anyone who suggested anything outside of that.

I support your right to live in an anarchistic or socialist way I just don't understand why you fuarrrks feel the need to impose your systems of belief on the world.

>>

 No.19465

>>19464
>Who are you to dictate my rights (and by extension) the rights of my business?

A business in the capitalist sense is an effort to enhance your economic standing at the expense of others'. Thus businesses in the capitalist sense are immoral and should not exist.

>Are my rights dictated by the mob?


Your rights,priveleges, and duties are dictated by you and your peers, yes, not people with higher economic/political power than you.

>Your system however the purportedly "free" system is completely unable to accommodate my beliefs.


You believe that you have the right to make other peoples' lives a living hell?

>A Socialist society is a society with a bureaucracy on a monumental scale, otherwise it is an ineffective society (quality of life wise).


I'd argue the opposite. If you look at the USSR, they had some of the most impenitrable beaurocracy in the world and also a very low quality of life for such an industrialized nation. Additionally, we've discussed a few theories on unstructured socialism here, you can critique them if you want.

>The quality of life in places like Canada, Norway, Sweden, and all those other Nordic shitholes is propped up by a huge bureaucracy, you need a license or a form to do everything, the government takes all your money in taxes, the people are dumb and incredibly complacent. Growing up in Canada it felt like it was just bread and circuses and there was this huge disdain for anyone who suggested anything outside of that.


>Canada, Norway, Sweden

>socialist

HA

also >shitholes

>I support your right to live in an anarchistic or socialist way I just don't understand why you fuarrrks feel the need to impose your systems of belief on the world.


We don't. That's kind of central to anarchism.

>>

 No.19467

>>19465

>A business in the capitalist sense is an effort to enhance your economic standing at the expense of others


This is a socialist myth about capitalism. There is no incentive to trade unless it furthers your self interest, this applies to both parties. If a trade (I mean trade in a broad sense this includes “labor”). You don't have to do it. Capitalism allows an alternative.

>You believe that you have the right to make other peoples' lives a living hell?


I believe that a consenting adult who subjects himself to a “living hell” has a right to that decision. You're confusing capitalism with colonialism, and some of the negative effects of globalization.

>I'd argue the opposite. If you look at the USSR, they had some of the most impenitrable beaurocracy in the world and also a very low quality of life for such an industrialized nation. Additionally, we've discussed a few theories on unstructured socialism here, you can critique them if you want.


I think I worded my statement wrong, what I meant is that the only way a socialist society CAN succeed is with a monumental bureaucracy. When you're talking about government it's important to be pragmatic “theories” created the communist disaster.

>We don't. That's kind of central to anarchism.


Yet my freedoms would be dictated by a group of my “peers”. And I'm assuming that my private property would be "redistributed" for burning man or some dumb fuarrrkery like that.

>>

 No.19469

>>19467
>There is no incentive to trade unless it furthers your self interest, this applies to both parties.

Furthering the interest of the group can also be a motivation, since group interest -> self interest, assuming the group is fair. Capitalism works well for unfair groups because it only needs to appeal to personal interest. An anarcho-socialist society is a fair group, so there is no need for a system designed to work in unfair groups.

I'd look at small communities in war-town areas for examples. People work together when it's the sensible thing to do.

>I believe that a consenting adult who subjects himself to a “living hell” has a right to that decision.


If you asked most people, they'd tell you they hate their jobs, but they can't quit because they'd go broke. They're coerced into having jobs they hate because otherwise they wouldn't be able to live a decent lifestyle. I don't think that's consent.

>When you're talking about government it's important to be pragmatic “theories” created the communist disaster.


I'm not really talking about government. Not in the conventional sense of a single government governing an entire nation.

>Yet my freedoms would be dictated by a group of my “peers”. And I'm assuming that my private property would be "redistributed" for burning man or some dumb fuarrrkery like that.


You have to consent to be part of the anarchist system in the first place. If you define "private property" as I do (that is, property that you "own" but do not personally use) then yes, you'd have no right to it. If you mean your house, I think any sensible anarchist would be fine with the raving capitalist looking out their window angrily.

As for the problem with you and your peers deciding what's right and wrong, I really don't understand the argument *for* letting higher-ups tell you what to do so I can't make a good response.

>>

 No.19556

>>19464
You'll be up against the wall when the rev comes and none of this debate club soykaf will save your add then

The irony is, you're probably poor and certainly not a capitalist

>>

 No.19564

>>19556
>executing people who disagree with you

worst. anarchist. ever.

>>

 No.19570

>>19564
It's called eugenics!

>>

 No.19583

>>19556

I'm not too worried tbh, I don't consider myself to be on the "debate club" faction. I went to a public university, I know what a real anarchist looks like and how complacent they are.

>>

 No.19590

File: 1447949845223.jpg (4.05 MB, 4288x2848, serveimage.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>19583
>I know what a real anarchist looks like and how complacent they are.

HUEHUEHUHEUHUEHUHEUHUEHUHEUHUEHUHEUHUEHUEHUE

the theorists might be complacent. The vast majority of anarchists are willing to fight to get their freedom.

>>

 No.19591

>>19564
What the fuarrrk do you think we can do with the people that aren't going to give up capitalism/male privilege/white privilege? There's no future for them and they'll keep spreading that soykaf . Better to make sure the world we build has the best chance it can get by obliterating this old soykaf completely.

Do you think the CNT didn't execute people? You're fuarrrking delusional.

>>

 No.19592

>>19591
Are you going to execute all the chinese for thinking they're better than the japanese and all the Japanese for thinking they're better than the Chinese? What about all the white women who don't acknowledge that black women have it worse.

And better kill all the black women, because they won't acknowledge that the latino women have it worse.

Also better kill all mexicans who think they're better than Colombians, and Puerto Ricans who think they're better than Haitians. Def gotta get rid of the Russians, they think they have authority over all the Baltic states, and gotta get rid of the baltic states because they hate the Eurasian muslim populations, But the Eurasian Muslims are also part of the Sunni/Shia divide. They have perceived privileges over one another, so gotta kill them, too.

Oh, and gotta kill all America Asians, they're the most privileged economically in America.

So I guess all we'll be left with is Agnostic cripple people who are of a mixed decent.

>>

 No.19593

>>19591
>What the fuarrrk do you think we can do with the people that aren't going to give up capitalism/male privilege/white privilege

tell them to leave. They have as much right as anyone else to freedom.

>Do you think the CNT didn't execute people? You're fuarrrking delusional.


I don't think the CNT was perfect, no.

>>

 No.19594

>>19378
But I dont own any property, and by doing community work I feel like I'm not doing much, and mostly helping the state.

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 No.19596

>>19594
If I can, I really want to set up a large commune in some emtpy land just outside a big city. We'd run it on anarcho-socialist princiople.s

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 No.19598

>>19590
If you gathered up every anarchist in the world, they would still be too few to overthrow any developed country.

Of course, if you did gather up all the anarchists, they would be too busy fighting with eachother over minor ideological disagreements to start a revolution in the first place.

>>

 No.19599

>>19593
They'll leave and then start their own society, and since their society is built on workable principles, and your society is built on good dreams and unicorn farts, they'll become more powerful than you and conquer your precious commune.

That guy is right to resort to murder. When you're desperately clinging to a fundamentally broken ideology, what else can you do but resort to violence?

>>

 No.19600

>>19598
that's why the revolution isn't happening right now. It will happen once capitalism falls apart

>>19599
The Ukrainian Free Territories survived for 2 years while being invaded more or less simultaneously by 3 different armies.

>and your society is built on good dreams and unicorn farts


why would you think that?

>>

 No.19601

>>19600
>that's why the revolution isn't happening right now. It will happen once capitalism falls apart
It will never happen. By the time "capitalism falls apart", technology and science will have reached a point that the idea of revolution won't even be applicable.

>The Ukrainian Free Territories survived for 2 years while being invaded more or less simultaneously by 3 different armies.

If you're happy to have your revolution last for only 2 years, I guess that's an endorsement.

>why would you think that?

Because it's blatantly obvious to anybody with a semi-functioning brain and a mote of perspective.

>>

 No.19602

>>19601
>technology and science will have reached a point that the idea of revolution won't even be applicable.

please elaborate.

>If you're happy to have your revolution last for only 2 years, I guess that's an endorsement.


just sayin', it's not like anarchism hasn't happened(and worked) in the past.

>Because it's blatantly obvious to anybody with a semi-functioning brain and a mote of perspective.


then explain it to my obviously non-functioning brain.

>>

 No.19604

>>19602
>please elaborate.
Robotics and other forms of advanced automation have the potential to render the concept of "private property" irrelevant. If a capitalist owns an entirely automated production line, what right does the "working class" have to claim it for themselves?

>just sayin', it's not like anarchism hasn't happened(and worked) in the past.

just sayin', a society that dies within a decade is a failure in my book.

>then explain it to my obviously non-functioning brain.

Do I really have to? You're a bunch of utopian idealists who think that you've figured out the universal best way of doing things, where there's no violence or crime or rape or racism and everybody is equal to everybody else and we all agree on everything and anybody who doesn't agree is free to go off on their own and start their own happy home where everybody agrees with eachother too.

And you really can't comprehend how anybody could think you're a wigged out hippy, out of touch with reality?

>>

 No.19606

>>19604
>Robotics and other forms of advanced automation have the potential to render the concept of "private property" irrelevant. If a capitalist owns an entirely automated production line, what right does the "working class" have to claim it for themselves?

Sounds like an anarchist utopia to me.

>Do I really have to?


if you can't explain why you think the way you do I can't think of a reason to lend credibility to your arguments

>You're a bunch of utopian idealists who think that you've figured out the universal best way of doing things


yes, I think anarcho-socialism(or something along that vein) is the best way to run a society.

No, I don't think it's the universal best way of doing things. And I don't think that anarchism will some day be the only thing around, it's just the way *I* want to live my life.

>where there's no violence or crime or rape or racism


An anarchist society will still have problems. There's no such thing as a problem-free society. It's just that I believe anarchism is the most morally right way to run.

>And you really can't comprehend how anybody could think you're a wigged out hippy, out of touch with reality?


maybe if they didn't understand the ideology.

>>

 No.19608

>>19606
>> it's just the way *I* want to live my life.

So what's stopping you from living your life in a manner that interacts the government in the smallest way possible? Sure, you'll still have an SSN, but you could easily buy a cheap ass piece of land in bumfuck nowhere.

>>Sounds like an anarchist utopia to me.


But it's really not, because those that own the automation will own the means of production, and those that needs the things that are produced will have to submit.

I, too, think Anarcho socialism would be pretty wonderful, but it's also impossible, and centralized power is inevitable in any modern society, even if it takes a few years to pop up, and even if it's just the dominant social network, or dominant controlling algorithm.

>>

 No.19612

>>19608
>So what's stopping you from living your life in a manner that interacts the government in the smallest way possible? Sure, you'll still have an SSN, but you could easily buy a cheap ass piece of land in bumfuck nowhere.

see >>19596

>But it's really not, because those that own the automation will own the means of production, and those that needs the things that are produced will have to submit.


but if technology has advanced to that point then there will be no reason why they should have to pay that capitalist to make things, when they could do it themselves. You're describing a post-scarcity economy.

>centralized power is inevitable in any modern society


Maybe on a large scale. I don't think so on a small scale.

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 No.19614

>>19608
>, but it's also impossible,

Nothing's impossible, lainon! You are a mammal of a species that has escaped its gravity well! Every day we create a thousand times more information than we did the previous thousand years! We can spilt atoms, communicate in true privacy, and replicate our information across all the continents, losing vast replicas before the loss is even registered!

Never doubt humanity. And never doubt anarchism. As long as there are humans and as long as there is oppression there will be humans acting as anarchists. Our victory is only not inevitable with respect to the extinction of our species!

Never compromise your desires. Fight for the freedom of all sentient minds in your light cone! Only ever always forward!

>>

 No.19615

>>19614

A+ speech lainon

>>

 No.19616

File: 1448006520138.png (145.74 KB, 402x368, 1447244658216.png) ImgOps iqdb

tbqhwu fams, anarchists or whatever they want to call themselves, aren't so different from islamists

both hate the societies that they live in - societies that are largely free and prosperous - because they feel the societies still aren't perfect enough

in that sense they are extremists because their mindset is shaped by an uncompromising ideology that does not map well to the reality of consensus politics and different levels of influence that inevitably arise in any human society

and in all extremisms, small groups will become radicials and carry out acts of violence and terror against civilian populations (see for example the RAF or Weathermen or The Islamic Group, etc. etc.), both to draw attention to themselves, and, far more absurdly, to "educate the masses" that they are wrong about everything and that the radicals views about society, which are the views of a small minority of a small minority, are in fact correct

instead of calling it what it is - pointless and brutal violence waged for an unattainable goal - violence is instead glorified and renamed by the group to "struggle" or "resistance"

this redefinition of terms is a common theme of ideology, taking for example the quote in OP's post where property is arbitrarily divided into two types: private property and personal property

this leads to non-sensical and internally contradictory beliefs that, nonetheless, are believed by the 'vanguard': that "converting" property into the commons, is respecting property

how 'private' and 'personal' are different isn't actually important to the ideologue, although he/she will attempt, unconvincingly, to articulate a difference that even a child can see is plainly false

what is important is that word redefinition enables these people to not only justify their actions to themselves and others, but to actively prevent anyone in the 'movement' from having to take a step back and critically examine their beliefs, to assess with reason and logic whether their beliefs are coherent, to say nothing of then looking at the broad picture

and so this anti-social, indeed anti-society, phenomenon, becomes self-propelling

it is like a virus or a cancer on humanity, albeit one that escaped from a lab, that is one that was created with good intentions

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 No.19618

>>19616
>RAF
Marxism-Leninism, Maoism
>Weathermen
Marxism-Leninism
>The Islamic Group
Sunni Islamism

None of them are anarchists.

Confusing anarchists with Leninists, trying to equate anarchism with terrorism, claiming private property does not exists because "muh common sense"; this post is so bad I would probably suspect you were paid to write it if I didn't know how illiterate some people are.

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 No.19619

>>19618
>splitting hairs

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 No.19620

>>19616
This post reads like what happens when /pol/ tried to sound logical.

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 No.19626

>>19616
But I don't wish for violence unless the majority wish it and I am an Anarchist. Islamic extremists on the other hand don't give a soykaf about what others think and will be violent anyway.

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 No.19627

>>19616
>societies aren't perfect enough
I'd argue that society is on a decline. You may think yourself a capitalist now, but I'm sure soon enough you'll abandon that dogma.

It's also quite a leap to compare anarchists with violent terrorists, especially since there are so many branches of anarchism that only share in the belief in the abolishment of heirarchy, and have widely different views on how to achieve that, or even what this is defined as.

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 No.19629

>>19627
The only real question for me is the timeframe. 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

The other question is, will the new dominant power be so obviously hypocritical as the Bolsheviks were?

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 No.19631

>>19626
>But I don't wish for violence unless the majority wish it
So while the islamists promote violence as the will of God, you promote violence as the will of The Majority.

>>19627
Yeah I'm sure once society collapses, we're all going to jump on board with you geniuses and your "popular violence" ethos.

No courts, right? Courts are a bourgeois concept. We execute with revolutionary conviction.

FYI that's what Fidel Castro and Che Guevara said. What heroes.

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 No.19635

>>19631
>anarchists are bad because Marxist-Leninists are bad
Look friend, we are not retarded. I'm sure this tactic works well on /pol/-colony boards, but you will have to step up your game if you want to troll Lainchan.

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 No.19636

>>19635
I fail to see the difference in regards to how you determine who should be murdered.

The difference, I presume, is that Fidel and Che took it upon themselves to decide for the people, whereas you would leave it up to the ayes, who has to be killed.

But by all means, keep whining about people comparing you to leninists. Of course there's no problem with revolutionary executions, so long as it's the will of the majority, what was I thinking.

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 No.19637

>>19635
And by the way, lainchan isn't revleft. This isn't a marxist space.

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 No.19638

>>19637
>anarchists are Marxists
Just stop posting, please.

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 No.19642

>>19640
The true definition of words isn't actually important in this subject. If you want to keep fighting a semantics war, just remember it's not my thread that's being ruined by it.

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 No.19647

>>19464
>Who are you to dictate my rights (and by extension) the rights of my business? Is there a board that decides what equates to freedom and what equates to oppression?
Nobody can dictate your rights in a anarchist society. The law is determined by community consensus and if you want you can opt out of this with no problems at all.

>That's why I disagree with Socialism in all it's forms on a fundamental level. Within a capitalist state, you are free to form your communes and your squats, you can go off into the woods with a bunch of like minded individuals, and in ideal circumstances sever ties to the government. You couldn't do that in a state without a free market.

That's a funny statement because most squats and communes that persisted, did so only under constant legal threat. Besides, what makes you think that this is only possible under a free market, what proof have you.

>Your system however the purportedly "free" system is completely unable to accommodate my beliefs. A Socialist society is a society with a bureaucracy on a monumental scale, otherwise it is an ineffective society (quality of life wise). The quality of life in places like Canada, Norway, Sweden, and all those other Nordic shitholes is propped up by a huge bureaucracy, you need a license or a form to do everything, the government takes all your money in taxes, the people are dumb and incredibly complacent. Growing up in Canada it felt like it was just bread and circuses and there was this huge disdain for anyone who suggested anything outside of that.

The first statement is incorrect. True anarchy will easily accommodate any belief so long as the people who it affects i.e. the local community, allow it to exist. If an entire country became anarchist you would most likely find a few places that would accept your business practices. You may call this mob rule but really it is just giving people the right to deny other people who may impose themselves upon the community. I can assure you that any bureaucracy that arises will come out of communal consensus and, like all other things, is easy to opt out of. In a way the bureaucracy has always been the enemy of Anarchists. Every time that an anarchist community has failed, there is a 90% chance it was due to a police raid of some kind. If I were part of an Anarchist commune I would make sure that the only restrictions would be guns and certain drugs but, you could easily find communes that have no such restrictions and maybe not even a criminal justice system.

>I support your right to live in an anarchistic or socialist way I just don't understand why you fuarrrks feel the need to impose your systems of belief on the world.

We don't want to impose anything on anyone. We would only stage a revolution if a portion of society wants to live anarchically and the government wont let them and even then we would only ensure that these people are respected and wouldn't force it on anyone else. I really don't know where you got the idea that we want to force anything as that directly conflicts with the whole idea of Anarchism.

>>

 No.19648

>>19631
I'm saying that in certain situations, if the government suppresses your right to be free you should strike back against the government.

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 No.19657

>>19636
>The difference, I presume, is that Fidel and Che took it upon themselves to decide for the people, whereas you would leave it up to the ayes, who has to be killed.

Personally I'm in favor of a strict criminal justice system.

>>19639

>Anarchism is a branch of marxism.

not really. The end goals are the same, but the methods of getting there are *totally* different.

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 No.19678

>>19675
ancap detected

>>

 No.19735

that's certainly more palatable.

>>

 No.19757

>>19678
Could just be post-left

Which personally I find silly (as someone who leans towards platformism) but has many valid points and is a good avenue for experimentation wrt praxis.

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 No.19761

>>19757
well anyone who says "pleb" as an insult isn't a leftist in my book

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 No.19768

File: 1448340639503.jpg (506.34 KB, 1600x1200, destroyed cpu.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

If all of you want to continue having these threads here then you need to stop self moderating and replying to soykaf. Use the report button, stop replying, and make a meaningful post. We don't yet have a moderator with a special interest in this topic and these threads are getting really bad. If you rather, I'll start banning people. The report button on lainchan is key to keeping the site running well.

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 No.19773

>>19768
Hey man I'd be a mod if you'd like bro. Okay dude? Gimme da powah man you know what I'm sayin'.

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 No.19774

>>19768
I've noticed that people across the *chans This has become a HUGE problem on 8/leftypol/ for instance are having some serious fuarrrking problems with controlling themselves in any political discussions whatsoever. It's getting to be incredibly annoying because this hasn't always been the case in places like Lainchan where the discussion tends to be pretty high quality.

I happen to have a particular interest in this topic and might be interested in being a mod. I'm putting my email in the email field if you want to get back to me on that but I've been more of a lurker on lainchan thus far so I don't expect to be a high priority contender for that.

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 No.19776

>>19768
Is pic related what you did with the donation money?

>>

 No.19777

Shame on you, guys. This thread started so well and you ruined by responding to shitpost.

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 No.19779

>>19774

The zeitgeist is all fuarrrked up at the moment. It's just not that the world's suddenly gotten more fuarrrked up (more?), something's going on up (down?) there that's got people real worried.

In a sort of weird, twisted sense, these threads going downhill is a good thing. It's not like the same trolls are attacking every thread on every board on every chan. It's fresh blood, and a lot of it. Anarchism is a dirty word (as is socialism, capitalism, communism, and pretty much any other kind of -ism if only by association), so it's not surprising that newcomers behave badly. They either don't understand the jargon or can't fathom the concepts, and worse than that they've been taught the failures of our systems and are blinded by the successes of their own. Everyone starts by lashing out, epiphanies don't come easily and antagonism only drives them away.

Moderation is clearly necessary (even if the irony is almost palpable), but don't forget that even the worst soycaf is brewed for a reason. They'd never have found this place if they weren't, on some level, curious.

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 No.19789

>>19779
I hear the word "zeitgeist" bandied around a lot. What does it mean? The dictionary gives an unsatisfying answer.

Othwerise, yeah, I agree with this post. Any discussion about political ideas is a good thing. People need to be exposed to new ideas, new arguments, etc. all the time lest they become too secure in their own views.

nonfat-soykaf drinker s have got to go, though.

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 No.20081

>>19456
Is there a new zinelibrary?

>>

 No.20084

Not that I have a problem with this sort of thread existing, but the subject isn't really /cyb/

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 No.20085

>>20084
The eternal struggle between people and the State is pretty /cyb/, imo. But I guess it depends on how controlling you think your government really is.

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 No.20086

>>20085

political junk is not /cyb/ unless the main topic is the relationship to technology or cyberpunk settings (real or ficitional)

We have a religion thread just below this one where the subject is the relationship of religion and technology and the role of religion in cyberpunk societies.

Ranting about the state and dumping Anarcho-Socialist literature doesn't belong in /cyb/, it belongs in /r/ or /lit/

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 No.20087

File: 1448751015950.jpg (89.12 KB, 461x431, cypherpunks.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20086
fine.

This is now a crypto-anarchy thread. Dump all cypherpunk, crypto-anarchy, and political related soykaf here.

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 No.20088

>>20086
You are forgetting the *punk* part of cyber*punk*

Remember: High tech and low life.

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 No.20089

>>20086
Cyberpunk is generally against authority and capitalism, just like anarchists.

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 No.20090

>>20089
Yeah, it is not directly a part of Cyberpunk but it is close enough.
Oh, yeah and remember that old Ancap thread?

We could treat this thread as anarchism general, so that we can also include cryptoanarchism.

>>

 No.20094

>>20090
I feel like putting ancaps and anticapitalists in the same thread would be a mistake

>>

 No.20096

>>20088
>>20089

Punk wasn't political at first. Albeit it was reactionary. Punk was primarily an aesthetic and an ethos.

I'll quote the wikipedia article "Although punks are frequently categorised as having left-wing or progressive views, punk politics cover the entire political spectrum. Punk-related ideologies are mostly concerned with individual freedom and anti-establishment views. Common punk viewpoints include anti-authoritarianism, a DIY ethic, non-conformity, direct action and not selling out."

I think Anarchy and social decay is for sure /cyb/ I don't think socialism has anything to do with it tho...

>>20086
This guy knows his shit

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 No.20098

File: 1448767703698.gif (981.96 KB, 500x375, 1438739714210.gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>20089
>>20090
>>20088

Cyberpunk is mostly understood as a genre of fiction, not necessarily a lifestyle choice or a philosophy of its own. I'm not against political discussions on this board, especially since there are plenty of cyberpunk stories with political themes, but any discussion of politics on /cyb/ should be related somehow to the discussion of the tropes of cyberpunk art and fiction.

We can discuss the merits of capitalism or the lack thereof for example because in many cyberpunk films, anime and novels, big corporations often play large, sometimes negative, roles in the world envisioned by the creators of these works. And we can discuss potential future scenarios which may come to mirror the worlds portrayed in cyberpunk fiction and discuss the role capitalism will play for better or for worse when we eventually find ourselves living in such worlds ourselves.

We can also discuss political things like world terrorism which is adopting a more developed cyberpunk character.

But if people are just going to discuss and swoon over Mikhail Bakunin's theories and observations without discussing any of the tropes of cyberpunk fiction or discussing Bakunin's ideas in the context of a cyberpunk world, I think that kind of stuff belongs on /r/ where there are already probably three political threads like that that have really nothing explicit to do with cyberpunk soykaf . In absence of a genuine /pol/ board, it's best to reserve /cyb/ for political discussions related directly to cyberpunk fiction or reality and /r/ or /lit/ for more generic political discussions.

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 No.20099

>>20098
except cyberpunk isn't just a genre of literature

this whole thread has devolved into a whether or not something is cyberpunk discussion which I thought we agreed not to have a long time ago. politics are basically unavoidable on any board because all media can be viewed politically, especially cyberpunk.

I wouldn't say there is necessarily anything cyberpunk about socialism, but anti-capitalism is a pretty strong vein in cyberpunk and /cyb/ has had anarcho-socialism threads for a long time now.

>>20096
>Punk was primarily an aesthetic and an ethos.
both of which are deeply embedded with politics

>>

 No.20102

>>20098
This pretty much

people keep thinking that cyberpunk is a philosophy when it's a genre of sci-fi.

>>

 No.20106

>>20099
>except cyberpunk isn't just a genre of literature

I think it's more accurate to call it an aesthetic.

>politics are basically unavoidable on any board because all media can be viewed politically, especially cyberpunk.


I'm not disagreeing. That's why I said political discussion shouldn't be derezzed . But without some ground rules, /cyb/ could easily morph into something like THIS board http://boards.4chan.org/pol/ catalog where the only thing cyberpunk are Matrix references to red/blue pills and thread for art dumps. So I am somewhat opposed to the idea of generals dedicated to specific ideologies which might just end up discussing nothing directly related to the tropes of cyberpunk and just discussing the ideologies by themselves is what I'm getting. Anarcho threads are fine I think, as long as there's an effort to make it more directly cyberpunk related.

>I wouldn't say there is necessarily anything cyberpunk about socialism, but anti-capitalism is a pretty strong vein in cyberpunk and /cyb/ has had anarcho-socialism threads for a long time now.


I think "anti-corporatist" is probably more accurate

Secondly, I don't think there's any contradiction between cyberpunk and capitalism. Capitalism is likely to exist in a cyberpunk world and it's likely to have its proponents just as well as opponents. The point is both are conceivable within what we'd normally call a "cyberpunk" world.

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 No.20107

File: 1448784787107.jpg (65.25 KB, 396x382, We have this thread everyd….jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

So far nobody has ever reached an agreement. It doesn't even matter what cyberpunk is or isn't. It's just a buzzword like "hipster".

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 No.20114

>>20099
>except cyberpunk isn't just a genre of literature
Yes, yes it is. Cyberpunk was pretty much made to be co-opted and now it's the new norm; anyone getting into it in an effort to feel "fringe" or "underground" is simply misguided.

>>

 No.20115

>>20096
>I don't think socialism has anything to do with it tho...
Anarchism is a branch of socialism.

>>

 No.20116

File: 1448791661294-0.jpg (39.46 KB, 1000x667, ZOAo9DC.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

File: 1448791661294-1.jpg (372.88 KB, 1900x1200, bluerose.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

File: 1448791661294-2.jpg (241.56 KB, 2848x780, Black-red-flag.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20086
Let's talk about Anarcho-Transhumanism, then; https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3o95oo/anarchotranshumanist_ama/

What are your guys' thoughts based on this AMA?
>>20115
Interestingly enough, despite the red flag being associated with socialism to as far back as the French Revolution, anarchism's black flag was only adopted nearly a century later. Yet the two never really shared the same hoist until at the height of the Spanish Civil War during the 1930s, where anarcho-syndicalists at the time created the bisected flag we've all seen before. Late 20th century schools of anarchist thought took by example and created their own variations but I've always thought that this was a bad idea because not many colors contrast well with black (justifiably so as the black flag's adoption was originally done to subvert the extravagant flags of the State)

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 No.20117

File: 1448792577659.jpg (239.72 KB, 764x988, murray-rothbard-smile.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20114

Well, in the 90's, guys like Timothy Leary or Genesis P-Orridge tried to make cyberpunk a subculture with its own guiding philosophy of sorts that was linked to transhumanism and rave culture. Leary even came up with the idea of "Digital Polytheism"

But a lot of people eventually found all that stuff to be really shallow like most post-modernist soykaf .

>>20115

It is true that anarchism was mostly a left wing phenomenon when it started, but for the last sixty or so years, we've seen the emergence of a new trend of "Conservative Anarchism" or "Anarchists of the Right" in reaction not only to leftism but also the mainstream right. Lot of people think Anarcho-Capitalism was a reaction to socialism or communism, but really it was a reaction to the increasing authoritarianism, corporatism and war mongering of mainstream american conservatives.

>>

 No.20119

>>20117
>Leary even came up with the idea of "Digital Polytheism"
It's funny because the dissolution of the Bourgeoisie and formation of the Precariat really reinforces his "Alchemists of the Middle Ages" metaphor to cyberpunk way back when.
>But a lot of people eventually found all that stuff to be really shallow like most post-modernist soykaf.
Well yeah, by the time the 90s rolled over the neoliberal mainstream had already grown accustomed to postmodern counterculture. Globalism was finally starting to have its effect and so while everyone was being more nihilistic than usual, few began to realize that subverting the State would be far less aesthetically pleasing in the near future. If you want an example of just how irrelevant the so-called "cyberpunks" of the 90s were then just look at how vastly different the anti-globalization protests from '98-01 were in comparison to the political movements of the '60s and '70s.
> we've seen the emergence of a new trend of "Conservative Anarchism" or "Anarchists of the Right"
The term you're looking for is "Paleolibertarianism" and it's more or less encapsulated by some in the neoreactionary blogosphere; whether or not being socially conservative whilst proclaiming one's self as anarchist is disingenuous has been fought over for decades now.

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 No.20122

>>20117
"Anarcho"-Capitalism has nothing to do with anarchism. It's just stateless capitalism, not anarchist at all.

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 No.20129

>>20119
>The term you're looking for is "Paleolibertarianism" and it's more or less encapsulated by some in the neoreactionary blogosphere;

What I was referring to includes paleolibertarianism, but I would not say it's limited to it or even anarcho-capitalism

If I can use myself as an example, I don't really know where I fit. I know I tend to favor "anarchy" in the sense of no government, although if there was a form of government I am more likely to support, even though most governments are trash imo, it would probably be some form of unconstitutional monarchy. I don't however see any current monarchy worth my support and I don't think there could be a monarchy that meets my own high standards. I like some of the ideas of anarcho-capitalism with their emphasis on private property and free enterprise because I like being free to own my own soykaf and sell whatever I want for whatever price others are willing to buy it and nobody has the right to tell me I can't. But an-caps tend to have a very materialistic way of thinking that I find a problem with a lot of anarchist movements. That and they still seem like they care about soykaf like "progress" and I don't care about the progress of society. I don't even really think I care about society at all. I like some of the environmentalism of anarcho-primitivism, but I don't believe we all need to or can become hunter gatherers and I don't find some of the attitudes towards technology in that movement very practical. Unless they intend to prevent agriculturalism by force, agriculturalism will always be around. Anarcho-socialism and anarcho-communism seem to be full of social justice warriors these days who want to spend more time fighting for LBGT rights, feminism and other crap I don't care about. Plus, it's unlikely that any large collective project like that will last very long, what with that pesky thing called human nature and its constant desire for more.

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 No.20144

>>20129
>but I would not say it's limited to it or even anarcho-capitalism
I would; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-the-nation-state.html
>it would probably be some form of unconstitutional monarchy
You're sounding more and more like a monarchist neoreactionary; a "radical" libertarian desperately trying to find a way out of your ideology's failures by cherry-picking everything that has come from the Age of Enlightenment, and rejecting the rest. Like someone who actually wants to be a serf; someone with the expectation that their chosen authoritarian thugs for whatever reason wouldn't put them up against the wall.
>Anarcho-socialism and anarcho-communism seem to be full of social justice warriors these days who want to spend more time fighting for LBGT rights, feminism and other crap I don't care about.
Emphasis on "seem"; nevermind the fact that social justice is central to combating socioeconomic inequality of any kind. You simply lack perspective.

>>

 No.20159

>>20144

>Emphasis on "seem"; nevermind the fact that social justice is central to combating socioeconomic inequality of any kind. You simply lack perspective.


I think that's interesting. It probably seems that way because every anarcho-communist and socialist is a keyboard warrior who thinks blogging about it on tumblr is fighting for the equality of marginalized groups.

>I would; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-the-nation-state.html


Looks like the capitalists are better at anarchy than the socialists in this thread.

>>20099
>both of which are deeply embedded with politics

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when Gibson wrote Neuromancer he was probably inspired by the nihilism of the punk scene in the UK, Vancouver, and SF. Although he was a hippy I don't think he was inspired by their "socialist" tendencies. I don't think those tendencies really developed in the punk subculture until the early 90's anyways with all the anti globalization soykaf .

Ultimately I think Gibson was inspired by DIY, individualism, and stuff like that. I don't think you could find the subtext anywhere in those books that "Hey man we should try out socialism" it's just not a theme of that work. Consequently I wouldn't call it a theme of cyberpunk.

Referencing that article about Special economic zones in places like Singapore and and the UAE I think that's more along the lines of the anarchy and social decay that Gibson pictured.

>>

 No.20165

>>20106
>cyberpunk is an aesthetic
which is something many "serious" cyberpunks would disagree with but there is a cyberpunk aesthetic so I'll give you that.

"Cyberpunk" is just a label given to a specific cultural development. Before "Cyberpunk", it was just called the Movement and we didn't get in these pointless arguments about cyberpunk.

I also feel like a good portion of this discussion should go on /q/:
>threads dedicated to specific ideologies
I see what you mean about not creating an echo chamber but I feel like your strategy can lead to problems down the road.

If you're in a conversation on a particular topic with someone, then you want to make sure there's either a baseline of knowledge or a level of receptivity to that knowledge.

In political conversations, this knowledge is the exact same thing as opinion. This is actually always the case, however politics are one of the easiest ways to make people painfully aware of that.

So where should we draw the line on what makes something political and therefore an echo chamber? I don't think we can. topics like anarcho-socialism, while they may be a whole lot of people agreeing with one another, are still topics of discussion like any other. It's not the responsibility of Kalyx or any staff members to enforce an agreement-free zone or prevent 'echo chambers'. It is however their responsibility to make sure threads stay on topic or at least follow a conversational progression, and people don't shitpost.


>anti-corporatist is more accurate

I agree cyberpunk fiction often paints corporations as the bad guys or at least oppressive and doesn't explicitly state capitalism itself is. However, I would argue they're open to substantial anti-capitalist analysis and interpretation. Also the presence of anti-capitalist sentiment doesn't necessarily mean there is no presence of capitalist sentiment. So I wasn't arguing the exclusion of capitalism, just the presence of anti-capitalism.

>>

 No.20166

File: 1448866537372.jpg (65.44 KB, 468x317, serveimage.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20159
>every anarcho-communist and socialist is a keyboard warrior who thinks blogging about it on tumblr is fighting for the equality of marginalized groups.

pic related is some anarcho-communists being keyboard warriors.

>Looks like the capitalists are better at anarchy than the socialists in this thread.


that's a contradiction if I ever heard one.

>>

 No.20168

File: 1448867071687-0.png (105.83 KB, 600x332, bicameral_brain.png) ImgOps iqdb

File: 1448867071687-1.png (106.75 KB, 600x332, normal_brain.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>20116
http://www.meltingasphalt.com/hallucinated-gods/
this linked article is very fascinating. Does anyone know where can I find more writing / illustrations / theories like pic related?

>>

 No.20170

>>20159
you're focusing too much on the works of gibson alone, I mean sure he wrote neuromancer but there's more than a few authors who were writing similar stuff at the same time he did, who also made unique contributions to the genre

also, I think the disagreement over the politics of punk rock goes back to its roots. From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#Philosophy
>Even as nostalgia was discarded, many in the scene adopted a nihilistic attitude summed up by the Sex Pistols slogan "No Future";[3] in the later words of one observer, amid the unemployment and social unrest in 1977, "punk's nihilistic swagger was the most thrilling thing in England."[12] While "self-imposed alienation" was common among "drunk punks" and "gutter punks", there was always a tension between their nihilistic outlook and the "radical leftist utopianism"[13] of bands such as Crass, who found positive, liberating meaning in the movement. As a Clash associate describes singer Joe Strummer's outlook, "Punk rock is meant to be our freedom. We're meant to be able to do what we want to do."[14]
so punk rock was never politicized, it was political from the beginning. It was also apolitical from the beginning.

>>

 No.20171

>>20169
the article I linked. Should I get the book?

>>

 No.20178

>>20171
I wrote that comment before I read the article, I'm pretty sure Watts got it from that essay.

Anyway, yeah, you should definitely read the book. Read Blindsight(http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm) first, though. They'll both leave you with an existential crisis. Deals a lot with consciousness and the singularity.

/offtopic

>>

 No.20181

>>20159
>because every anarcho-communist and socialist is a keyboard warrior
This is far from the truth.
>Looks like the capitalists are better at anarchy than the socialists in this thread.
Accelerating the death of neoliberal capitalism and coddling up the remains into your own feudal-like state isn't anarchism.

What do you lainons think of what's been going on in Rojava?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/11/25/rojava_is_a_radical_experiment_in_democracy_in_northern_syria_american_leftists.html

>>

 No.20182

File: 1448873838894.jpg (26.09 KB, 529x399, king bugs bunny.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20144
>You're sounding more and more like a monarchist neoreactionary;

Well, monarchy IS the most natural form of government human beings have ever had. America's government is far more authoritarian than King George III ever was. Monarchy has lasted as long as it has because it is the form of government that responds most to the human condition. It is also the most universal form of government, being the traditional form of government in almost every part of the world before the modern era. The Republic, and the democratic ideas upon which it was supposed to be based, was exported from the West to everywhere else and was a hand-me-down from Ancient Greece which was resurrected mainly to serve new bourgeois interests, not proletariat or peasant interests.

>>

 No.20183

>>20181
>neoliberal capitalism
Is this actually a serious thread? I can't tell anymore.

>>

 No.20184

File: 1448874370402.jpg (58.3 KB, 786x600, 03Azula.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20182
>>20144
>a "radical" libertarian desperately trying to find a way out of your ideology's failures by cherry-picking everything that has come from the Age of Enlightenment, and rejecting the rest.

I don't call myself libertarian. In my experience, most libertarians have no special taste for monarchy, other than maybe something like the British model, for obvious reasons. I do respond positively to the libertarian commitment to free markets and private property, but without a hereditary monarchy or nobility whose rights are protected by the same principles of private property and who acquire authority by appeal to something higher than humanity or material wealth, I don't see how the capitalist/merchant class can be checked so as to prevent its more nefarious elements from establishing some kind of oligarchy of their own. Like with communism, human nature often presents a stumbling block for most utopian dreams and while anarcho-capitalists and libertarians strike me as more realistic in their acceptance of the reality of human evil as far as communism is concerned, they downplay or don't realize the potential abuse of their own systems which while perhaps potentially less destructive than communism has proven to be, still presents a very serious potential danger. After all, it was capitalist money which helped make the Bolshevik Revolution possible in the first place and even today, places like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which many would consider a prime example of the evils of monarchy in the modern era (and it is definitely one of the worst) are in fact heavily supported by the supposedly free democratic capitalist nations of the world, which is how they get away with so much.

The libertarian argument is usually something like "well, if we had more of a free market this kind of stuff wouldn't happen as much," but what if some people just want to use the free market to get the power they desire and once they get it use that power to control or destroy the free market? Somebody has to check those people while making sure the markets have a great amount of freedom. Monarchies were usually pretty good at that, which is why the merchant classes often supported those movements which would reduce the monarchs power over them (like democracy) but not necessarily reduce their own ability to control the peasants who would migrate to the cities to fill out the ranks of the industrial labor in their factories. Look at the wealthiest people in the world today, most of them aren't descended from traditional aristocracy. Heck, many of them have been Jews, the most cursed people in traditional Christian (and Muslim) society.

Libertarians still cling to a lot of ideas of classical liberalism, which while admirable in some ways, I still think have proven to be very dangerous in the long run.

>Like someone who actually wants to be a serf


That's funny cause many anarcho-socialists and anarcho-communists sound like they actually want to be peasants. Nothing wrong with that though. Peasant life really wasn't that bad when compared to the conditions of later industrial workers and the former probably had more control over their own lives than the latter.

>>

 No.20185

>>20183
>I can't tell anymore.
Why?

>>

 No.20187

>>20182
>Natural
You could have just said hierarchy.
>Monarchy has lasted as long as it has because it is the form of government that responds most to the human condition.
This darwinistic mindset is dying thanks to the globalization and automation of labor; regressing back to monarchic states would accomplish nothing because they aren't sustainable without attrition; just look at how much soykaf Saudi Arabia has been brewing lately with people comparing them to DAESH. Hierarchy requires a degree of control that things like the Internet are able to subvert with ease.
>>20184
>I don't call myself libertarian.
You should; many anarchists are simply left-libertarians when you get down to it.
>most libertarians have no special taste for monarchy,
If you actually looked into the neoreactionary blogosphere then you'd see that you're not alone, and certainly aren't anarchist. It's that socially conservative side of you that limits your being the latter.
>potentially less destructive than communism has proven to be
I really don't want to argue semantics here, but what you think is communism isn't communism under an anarchist context. You should read George Orwell's personal account of the Spanish Civil War, "Homage to Catalonia" if you wanna learn more about anarcho-socialism.
>That's funny cause many anarcho-socialists and anarcho-communists sound like they actually want to be peasants
This is a contradictory statement; many anarchists are serfs already. When I suggested you actually wanted to be a serf, I was referring to you expecting to be in the profician or salariat class as pointed out by Guy Standing, >>19424
>Peasant life really wasn't that bad
Tell that to the Precariat.

>>

 No.20188

> discussing arbitrary political concepts on lainchan
Have you even watched SEL?

>>

 No.20190

File: 1448878533546.jpg (14.12 KB, 225x346, camoo.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20178
Thanks for the link; I've yet to go through that AMA in its entirety but I thought it would be of interest here. Anarcho-Transhumanism seems like a great reaction to its primitivist counterpart as well as the overarching clusterfuck that is the transhumanist movement as a whole; http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-transhumanist-movement-is-having-an-identity-crisis
>>20188
>neurosuggesting 90s nihilism is still relevant
read pic related and try not to kill yourself


>>

 No.20192

>>20190
And thats the point of the show, right over your head

>>

 No.20194

>>20192
Guess I'll have to rewatch it then.

>>

 No.20198

>>20192
Not the anon you're insulting but I'll be dead honest, SEL wasn't a very good show. I stopped half-way through it. I just come here for the cyber board.

>>

 No.20203

>>20198
I have never seen anyone legitimately say they thought lain was bad and the one place I fuarrrking do is on a website called "lainchan".

>>

 No.20205

>>20183
there's an actual monarchist here and your issue is with the phrase neoliberal capitalism?

>>

 No.20217

>>20198
I agree with this guy. SEL was way too abstract. I dropped it halfway the second time I tried watching it.

A proper anime for lainchan should be Texhnolyze or even Kaiba. Both tackle high tech and the ethics of transhumanism better than lain ever did.

>>

 No.20227

>>20183
neoliberal capitalism is pretty well-established as the dominant form of government in the world right now.

>>

 No.20239

File: 1448961814262.jpg (44.16 KB, 620x413, thesourceofallourproblems.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20227
Yup; it's just another word used to describe globalization; if it weren't for the neoliberal policies enacted by the Reagan and Thatcher administrations during the late seventies and early eighties, things would likely be different today.

>>

 No.20256

Hey guys, what could be considered essential reading?
I really wanna learn more about this, any essential works you recommend?

>>

 No.20273

>>20116
rechelon is a fuarrrking liberal, not an anarchist.

What's the origin of the blue/black A-T flag?

>>

 No.20286

>>20256
I'm reading conquest of bread by peter kropotkin, I'd suggest it

>>

 No.20293

File: 1449069136186-0.jpg (493.02 KB, 909x627, anarchotranshumanism.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

File: 1449069136186-1.jpg (159.09 KB, 426x640, tumblr_noo25r0ttb1r838oao1….jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb

>>20273
>rechelon is a fuarrrking liberal, not an anarchist.
Never heard of him up until very recently; pls elaborate
>What's the origin of the blue/black A-T flag?
I'm unsure. Blue in flags have always stood for liberty and perseverance of the individual. From a transhumanist point of view it makes sense to merge it with the black flag; yet I've never seen any transhumanists fly a plain blue flag in the wild before.. Which brings me back to my prior point on other schools of anarchist thought copying the syndicalists; it just seems too deliberate.

>>

 No.20297

File: 1449071947215.gif (2.31 KB, 280x201, lenbeatw.gif) ImgOps iqdb

If only anarchism never worked with communism, it would had a chance to survive, instead you are just like some radical muslims, you exist just to spread your commie soykaf around the world and be conquered by dictators.

You all are delusional, without knowing that you are all tools for establishing total dictatorship. You want freedom, you end up being slaves.

This is what happened to russia in 1917. Anarchists were used as tools for subversion, but then totally wiped the hell out by Lenin.

>>

 No.20300

>>20297
State Socialism is nothing new and is the reason why the Left is pretty much dead these days; the West's adoption of neoliberalism was just a convenient death knell back then. It's taken thirty some odd years for Muslim leftists to wean off their militant Marxist-Leninist ideologies (see links in >>20181 about what's been going down in Rojava); so you're only preaching to the choir here.

>>

 No.20307

>>20166

Going out and burning soykaf twice a year at the g8 and the g20 is hardly creating meaningful change or winning over the hearts and the minds of the people.

As far as creating lasting movements anarcho-socialists and communists have always failed. Most anarchist communities have a lifespan of <10 years. I'd say the majority of them fail because of pure edgemastery... although you'd have to do a study.

Maybe there was a time when anarchists weren't keyboard warriors. Like it looked like after they got trounced in Seattle people were at least empathetic to them. But the turnout at g8 and g20 protests has been going down consistently.

Now aside from professional protesters (what's left of the black block) who all seem like fuarrrking jackasses and cry babies to everyone and a few fading isolated communities in shit-hole countries. Anarchism is confined to the internet.

Don't worry you'll grow out of it.

>>

 No.20309

>>20307
>is hardly creating meaningful change or winning over the hearts and the minds of the people.
What else do you expect people to do when their minds are stuck in the twentieth century? What soykaf; today's counterculture is just now catching up with technological advancements made two decades ago. We've been in limbo ever since high-speed internet became wildly available.
>Don't worry you'll grow out of it.
Looks like you're no different than the anarchists you ridicule.

>>

 No.20314

File: 1449104208513.jpg (50.95 KB, 301x272, 1445158004926.jpg) ImgOps Exif iqdb


>>20297
>>20300

I think that might also be the reason for these more conservative forms of anarchism popping up, be they an actual kind of school of thought like anarcho-capitalism or just a vague, individualistic and almost kind of semi-anarchism that leans toward a libertarian or socially conservative affiliation. The utopianism, the political correctness, the radical social justice warrior internet cult, the tendency for the anarchist left to just be a tool of the statist left all I think are contributing to some feelings of like "something's not working"

Among the right, I think many moderate right-wing, Bible reading sort of people who recognize the war and fear mongering and big government loving sentiments of people like Donald Trump and others but can't stand Obama any more feel left out of the current political process. Likewise, I think there are handsome portions of the center-left or even the far-left who are also being marginalized, especially within the anarchist movement.

I think anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-socialists probably have more in common with one another than with their statist counterparts. After all, anarcho-capitalists really wouldn't have a problem with communes existing along anarcho-socialist lines within the anarcho-capitalist framework, as long as their isn't any kind of force. Heck, many anarcho-socialist/communist communities often operate like collectively owned mini-corporations within and alongside the current dominant state capitalist or democratic capitalist structure with people free to leave these communities at any time they feel like it's just not satisfying their needs.

>>

 No.20316

File: 1449104815812.png (223.74 KB, 455x519, 1416680850385.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>20205

I'm not really that much of a monarchist, I think. Though I think I have more monarchist leanings than even most libertarian monarchists do.

But I also don't see a point in monarchist activism too much, because if monarchies are so natural, then they'll return in due time regardless of whether I personally do anything. I don't think the current globalized nation-state structure based as much as it is on republican/democratic ideals is very sustainable in the long run. Once this structure begins to collapse, I think anarchy and monarchy will likely remain in some sort of competing and/or symbiotic relationship, just as they have for thousands of years in different forms. So, anyone who would call for what Tolstoy may have called just a mere outer revolution of any kind, be it monarchist or leftist, at this point I think is probably just impatient and is likely impatient because they have their own self-interests they are desperate to satisfy.

The way I see it is like this: it's better that there's no governments at all and society is dominated by self-reliant individuals and voluntary & relatively classless collectives (classless in the sense that everyone is more or less of the same socio-economic status, to say nothing of a "spiritual hierarchy"), but I doubt total anarchy across the world is possible. In some situations, a government may be necessary to keep peace and protect the weaker and more helpless members of the society, but it's better at least in my opinion for that government to be a monarchy (along more medieval lines than absolutist or constitutionalist ones, but without devolving into complete technological primitivism or technocracy), and preferably a monarchy with the power and freedom to ruthlessly punish as they see fit the nobility and/or merchant class if they ever think of abusing the peasantry or artisan class.

>>

 No.20318

>>20314
>The utopianism, the political correctness, the radical social justice warrior internet cult, the tendency for the anarchist "something's not working"
We've already been there, done that; remember the nineties? Ted Kaczynski's manifesto was a socially conservative, primitivist reaction to all of that twenty years ago. You should look into Post-Structuralism; read some of Michel Foucault or Max Stirner's works to get an idea of how to identify the "power" of the state and utterly dismantle any utopian conceptions of socialism you may have. However, Stirner wasn't explicitly socialist; it does well enough to get a handle on today's post-left.
>After all, anarcho-capitalists really wouldn't have a problem with communes existing along anarcho-socialist lines within the anarcho-capitalist framework, as long as their isn't any kind of force.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3t3r8a/questions_from_an_ancap_socialism_in_a/cx31mjg

>>

 No.20323

File: 1449111404702.gif (2.96 MB, 300x220, 1445976441696.gif) ImgOps iqdb

>>20318

>remember the nineties?


A lot of these millennials were born and raised in the 90's, which is why they are the way they are.

>https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3t3r8a/questions_from_an_ancap_socialism_in_a/cx31mjg


Eh, they both sound kind of stupid.

Nobody can ever seem to agree on what the hell each term means. Capitalists describe their form of capitalism only for socialists to say "Well, that's not REALLY capitalism!" Socialists describe their form of socialism only for the capitalists to say "Well, that's not REALLY socialism." And both will say the same to other fellow capitalists/socialists. Both self-described socialists and capitalists only really think in excessively logical and quite theoretical terms and are excessive "categorizers". They both have some trouble understanding human individuality, even if they pay lip service to individuals, probably because so many,especially in the anarchist community, are atheists or agnostics who deny or doubt the reality of the human soul (at least as a creation of God, excluding of course some self-described religious anarchists) and thus have little clue what makes human beings human to talk about what they need to actually do. At the end of the day it's probably all just a bunch of gibberish people have wasted more time and energy fighting over than human beings have over religion

I sometimes laugh with friends about how it feels sometimes like I'm an anarchist, socialist, communist, capitalist, monarchist, pacifist, militarist, aristocratic, primitive agrarianist cyberpunk. Just a mess of contradictions. What I know gives me center though is a basic religious core. I think I only respond more to such labels like anarchist though in their simplest of meanings and that's probably for the best considering that their more complex or precise meanings seem to get overly complicated and change like the wind every decade. Neo-reactionary probably is an accurate term too for myself, but I don't know anything about that term or what kinds of people it is associated with.

>>

 No.20334

>>20297
>This is what happened to russia in 1917.

Yes, one of the big takeaways from the Russian Revolution is to never trust a Marxist-Leninist.

>>20307
>As far as creating lasting movements anarcho-socialists and communists have always failed.

this is because anarchism as a movement can only really exist in a generally leftist atmosphere, and that is currently lacking.

>>20323
>"Well, that's not REALLY capitalism!" Socialists describe their form of socialism only for the capitalists to say "Well, that's not REALLY socialism."

I hate debates like that. Possibly the least productive possible conversation.

>Neo-reactionary probably is an accurate term too for myself, but I don't know anything about that term or what kinds of people it is associated with.


neo-reactionary basically means Donald Trump. Based on your previous mish-mosh of terms I don't think you fit the bill.

>>

 No.20335

File: 1449127528540.png (8.08 KB, 468x379, chart.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>20334

>this is because anarchism as a movement can only really exist in a generally leftist atmosphere, and that is currently lacking.


It is?

>I hate debates like that. Possibly the least productive possible conversation.


I think it reflects a bit of a problem with some of these modern ideological thinking. They definitely reflect the the more subjective post-Reformation atmosphere in which they have developed.

>neo-reactionary basically means Donald Trump. Based on your previous mish-mosh of terms I don't think you fit the bill.


If there are people in the areas of politics or sociology whose ideas I think I might respond to the most but to varying degrees, it's probably:

1. Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn
2. Rene Guenon
3. Leo Tolstoy
4. Hossein Nasr
5. Ali Shariati
6. Milton Friedman
7. Murray Rothbard
8. Peter Lamborn Wilson
9. Thomas Jefferson
10. Niccolo Machiaveli
11. Josip Broz Tito
12. Malcolm X
13. Henry David Thoreau
14. Ted Kaczynski
14. Josiah Warren
15. Edmund Burke
16. Frederick Douglass
17. Hassan Nasrallah
18. George Orwell
19. Ron Paul

Also, pic related. I think the real problem for me is being so (apparently) center and having all these different -ism's, none of which wholly apply.

>>

 No.20347

>>20316
> libertarian monarchists
Please tell me this is a joke.

>>

 No.20349

>>20347

They're mostly British libertarians who don't want to form a republic but still believe in a constitutionalist government of some kind.


>>

 No.20364

>>20359
A lot of their beliefs are pretty fuarrrkin' dumb, especially the ones that belief in straight corporatism (The CEO is king and Shareholder dukes and duchesses? This literally sounds like Shadowrun.)

That being said "Neoreactionaries believe “The Cathedral,” is a meta-institution that consists largely of Harvard and other Ivy League schools, The New York Times and various civil servants. Anissimov calls it a “self-organizing consensus.” Sometimes the term is used synonymously with political correctness. The fundamental idea is that the Cathedral regulates our discussions enforces a set of norms as to what sorts of ideas are acceptable and how we view history — it controls the Overton window, in other words."

Does hold some validity.

>>

 No.20374

>Anarcho-socialist
You meant Anarcho-Utopist

>>

 No.20375

>>20335
>It is?

historically anarchism has only gained traction in the midst of wider-scale worker mobilization and/or revolution. Otherwise it's just destruction.

>>

 No.20393

>>20359
>>20364

https://www.mises.org/library/libertarian-case-monarchy

mises.org also offers free digital copies of Erik Kuehnelt-Leddihn's pro-monarchichal works.



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