cyb - cyberpunk

>>16688
Sure if that's the way you want to look at it, but I prefer to think of the fact that we got the wonderful civilization we have today because our predecessors didn't really give two fuarrrk s about whether or not it was right to push the savages off their land.

>>16614
>it doesn't at all seem right to blame the pox.
Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Depopulation_from_disease

>>16759
Nobody is denying that it was disease, just saying that it's important to note that we gave them these diseases, in some cases deliberately. This was not just an act of nature it was an act of biological warfare and genocide.

>>16571
>Natural flow of people attributable to goods and services is in no way comparable to the sort of subsidized and politicized immigration to Europe that we see today.

Yes, it is just look at the data from other countries that are also global or local hubs (UAE, Qatar, Luxembourg, Singapore, Switzerland, etc) they're above 30% of foreign-born population, whereas the UK is merely in 12%.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/which-countries-have-the-most-immigrants/

>>16729
the OP's line of thinking is intellectually lazy, and if enough people believe in it Germany will become yet another panopticon. you can kiss the CCC goodbye

>>16766
You're comparing a bunch of city-states to a former empire...? Totally different context.

>>16599
>The Communists could claim we are primitive because we arnt communist, Muslims could claim not recognizing the truth of Islam is primitive etc. While there is some interesting discussion to be had about how technology grew in parallel in some cultures and in others a tipping point lead to an explosion of innovation and discovery.

I explicitly said that I thought that the genocide was regrettable and immoral. However, in respect to technology, architecture, shipbuilding, and other scientific fields that can be judged empirically, the Europeans vastly outclassed the natives. Bringing amorphous concepts like ideology and religion into it clouds the issue. In those respects, yes the "We're more advanced so we'll conquer you" argument has no factual basis and is purely rhetoric. That is not always the case though.

>Simply calling other cultures primitive is dangerous

Admittedly, it may not be an adjective to throw around so carelessly, but there are empirical ways to determine mathematical and scientific knowledge of chemistry, medicine, science, ect.

>You might find yourself supporting a maniac one day

I've met no man who's judgement of character I trust more than my own.

>>16762
>we gave them these diseases, in some cases deliberately
Except they didn't even know germs existed then. It doesn't at all seem right to blame scientific knowledge that didn't exist

>>16691
>there is nothing much I can do against it
>Good thing I am leaving Europe, things are getting worse with every year.

Deserter

>>16796
all of them are currently countries regardless of their history , in fact UAE has 1/3 the area of Germany, Brunei 1 and 1/4 times the size of Germany. Australia has more foreigners than Germany and the UK, New Zealand has more foreigners than Germany and the UK.
If you deny numbers there is not much it can be done for you. "He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense."

>>16766
>Cites two other countries in Europe

>mypoint.jpg

I think rate of grown of foreign born populace would be a more telling statistic, although that would be a harder one to get current data for.

>>16802
You're the living proof that lain can't Statistics

>>16803
As the world becomes more global, we can both agree that nationalism is on the decline worldwide. The debate is over whether it is a negative or a positive.
Also, were you planning on refuting my post or were you just going to go ad-hominem?

>>16803

What's with people thinking basic math is statistics on this site? Analyzing data != Observing data.

The difference is between observing a rock and alyzing it's chemical composition.

>>16829
Nah, man I'm just gonna leave it there. I presented data suggesting that major commercial hubs worldwide tend to have more foreign population to which the reply was the data was irrelevant because one of them used to be an empire and the others not despite their size, population and the fact that they are recognized countries and no other confounding factors were present. To which the reply was "but there are two other European countries which proves my point" and "there should be a grown of foreign born populace statistic" because that data would be "real". To which I replied that you can't do statistics because if you can't accept data that is there and just ignore it due to your own interpretation of the world instead of building a model around it (you can't just throw away data because you don't like what it says) to which I got a reply about some soykaf about nationalism which I haven't said a single word and about differences about observation and analysis. So there is not much to argue about if you present data and it is discarded because someone didn't like it, of even worse to reply with something unrelated.

>>16798
there was no knowledge of germs, but they were well aware that being around sick people = you get sick

>>15762
ditto

>>16798
America's education system teaches it's students that the Europeans gave the indians contaminated blankets intentionally. I don't mean to imply that this counts as proof, but take it for what you will.

>>18260
>>18260

America's education system is also really, REALLY, bad for anyone reading.

>>18260
my education system never told me that. all they said was
>the colonists tried to trade with the indians but didn't realize they were giving them diseased blankets
knowing the soykaf that europeans have pulled in the past I seriously doubt that was an "accident"

>>16887
First of all, other lanions' posts have been peppered in with mine. I did not make the first post regarding London, and I did not refer to the Britts as an empire

Secondly, on my mention of nationalism

The dynamic of nationalism vs internationalism is at the core of the discrepancies in our views. I am arguing for a country's right to a degree of homogeneousnes, and you are arguing the contrary, saying it is unrealistic and unnatural. Nationalism is in this way intrinsically tied to the rights of a people to remain secular. That's what we have been talking about.


>data on rates of minority growth as apposed to a country's levels of immigration rates would be more "real"

You act like I'm refuting the fact that globalization results in higher flow of people through a land. I'm not. A "natural flow of people due to goods and services" implies that the immigrants are trading and doing business with a country. The majority would not be integrating and assimilating into the culture long term. Immigrants that are in a country to conduct business by and large would still have ties to their homeland. Now we are back to my point,

>Natural flow of people attributable to goods and services is in no way comparable to the sort of subsidized and politicized immigration to Europe that we see today.


That is why I said the rate of growth of minority populations would be a more pertinent statistic to our discussion. It would largely compensate for the natural flow of peoples attributable to a major trade hub. I'm not "rejecting data because I don't like it". I was pointing out an extraneous variable. And in response you're trying to brush my legitimate points aside as petulant refusal of what's been presented, which is resorting to an ad-hominem logical fallacy.

>>15734
Just evict every single person who isn't genetically German. Problem solved.

This is all engineered by capitalists to fuarrrk over the working class. Think about it for a moment. Have you seen factory and company owners and investors worried or complaining about immigrants? Of course not, lower wages are a plus. Cheap foreign labor is best. Increased tensions between workers also increases competition in the market. Why do you think the US is stirring soykaf in the Middle East? And you, by attacking immigrants and fighting between yourselves, are fixing nothing. Know your real enemies. Attack the ones who are engineering and profiting from this, not other victims. That's all.

>>18660
Whoa, that's a bitter red pill.

Did American capitalists arrange the Arab spring to break European labor? That seems so doable...

>>17001
Fucking seriously, Indian genocide apologists? Get the fuarrrk back to pol.

>>18260
The answer is, like in most cases, it was both intentional and unintentional.

The unintentional part is that, lacking exposure to European diseases, the native Americans became very sick very quickly after just being exposed to normal environments for the Europeans. Only one of them survived the first passage back to Europe, for example. So the Europeans quickly figured out that the Americans were, if not weak to European diseases, weak to disease in general.

Then, when negotiation became difficult, they'd trade blankets that were used by children who contracted measles or pox or other common diseases, and watched as the Americans died of plague.

This is pretty well documented; the only example I know of is Lord Amherst but I'm sure there are others.

Maybe its because I'm an american and I'm relatively used to a heterogenous society, but I have no sympathy for the EU bitching about losing their homogenous society.

We have more illegal EU immigrants than you have refugees and fuarrrk ton more illegal Latin americans but no one is complaining about them establishing a catholic papacy or undermining the fabric of our society like EU fascists are whining about Syrian refugees establishing a caliphate and enacting sharia law.

Do you really think your societies are too fragile to handle a few thousand more strangers? We did that soykaf when we took you in. But if you think your culture is too weak to assimilate them then go ahead and vote more fascists into power cause that always works.

I'm honestly disappointed in my nation for not taking in more refugees. We could settle them in Detroit and the rest of the rust belt and they would be grateful for the chance to not be decapitated or blown up at any second.

>>19486
>but no one is complaining about them establishing a catholic papacy or undermining the fabric of our society

wh-what?

>>19486
Yes, the hispanics have a long history of blowing themselves up, beheading people, and trying to convert the entire planet to their religion, lest they kill everyone trying.

>>19486
There's no homogeneous society in Europe, every country is full of minorities. Some even like to shoot at people and blow things up.

>>19486
I hear you bro, as a Murrican who lived in Euroland for 4 years (not anymore tho I'm in college now.) I totally get your point. I probably would go as far as to say that there are far more legal immigrants in America than refugees in Europe. But the problem with Europe is that precisely, assimilation. In America a son of immigrants is American, period (inb4 anchor baby Trump rant.) But in Europe, for instance Germany or France, it is completely normal for people to say "oh yeah I'm Turkish but I was born in Germany", it's never I'm German. Because not even 3 generations later immigrants feel European. The autoperceived French cultural exceptionalism and the "muh masterrace" are real, in fact, I can even say that I've witnessed more racial discriminatory acts in France and Germany against minorities (insults, beatings, etc.) than I've ever witnessed in America, and I am from the South.

>>19490
>the spanish never had a history of violence, religion or colonialism
>>19492
you know who likes to shoot people even more? majorities

>>19534
Don't make me pull the statistics on you.

>>19516
>>19486
I agree. I feel like the parallel to popular anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe is Donald Trump in the United States, and he's basically a joke that wins votes :/.

It's weird how politics in the United States versus Europe works - over there, they seem to be more socialist while we're less racist.
>>19535
this discussion has happened before, with proper error analysis and adjustment for sample size you have no case. no, I don't want to see the graphs you got from /pol/.

>>19537
So you don't actually have any statistics. I'm glad we had this discussion

>>19538
You told me you didn't want to see them. I guess shouldn't have taken your statement seriously, then.

>>19539
my statements aren't the only thing you're taking too seriously..

>>19490
Hispanic here, yeah we do have a history of decapitating people. soykaf was cash while it lasted.

>>19576
You still have a history of decapitating people.
See drug cartels.

>>19581
And yet no one in America believes Hispanics will go to America to behead people.

>>19585
considering Mexicans have lived in California since before it was part of the US, and I've never heard of a Mexican here decapitating someone, I don't think it's likely.

>>19585
I mean, ms-13 certainly happened that way. It's not like Hispanic immigration to the US has been all kumbayah and cheap labor.

There's a big difference between a refugee crisis and a porous border, though. Syrian refugees can't control where they'll end up, so that can't plan things like bringing their gangs (that well at least) and they're not going to be able to smuggle drugs.

>>19487
Yes that's about how ridiculous I believe the claims of a European caliphate are.

>>16361
Are you implying that 'cyberpunk' is NOT ment to be edgy?
Please don't tell me that this is ture.

>>19625
sure, but there's a fine line between edgy and stupid that gets crossed all the time.